Buenos Aires - Cliché Bitching About Toronto Thread

[Redroom Studios]

yes, indifference seems to be a big part of our mental outlook here.

Hipster Duck, you really think that the Bloor St sidewalk upgrades are world class and unmatched within N.A.? I must admit that thought has never crossed my mind...

 

[taal]

yes, indifference seems to be a big part of our mental outlook here.

Hipster Duck, you really think that the Bloor St sidewalk upgrades are world class and unmatched within N.A.? I must admit that thought has never crossed my mind...

Clearly they're not, but they're pretty good nonetheless. If this is an example of your 'Toronto doesn't care' attitude I wish we wouldn't care about any of our streets
Yes, the project could have been better, but for the money spent I think they did a wonderful job and yes it does compare to high end streets some North American cities have (and no I wouldn't say it's better). The lights are sad though, I'll agree with that.

 

[taal]

Yes this probably happens elsewhere to a certain degree, but most cities do still maintain their commercial/business centres and urban cores. People demand it. The bigger question here is why Torontonians seem to not care? How many people must pass by those fountains on University Avenue daily and yet not bother to email, text or call somebody to complain? Our civic leaders get away with crap here that people just wouldn't stand for elsewhere. It's a shame.

Argg don't remind me of those fountains ! I remember a couple years back the excuse was the stone is from a certain quarry and they weren't producing anything ? Anyone know the status of this.

I don't think Torontotians are indifferent I believe they do care, but a lack of action on the cities part wears one down after a while, what's the point of identifying issues if they're never resolved ?


Now, here's where I'll point out some things Toronto does do a good job at:

See a pot hole / safety issue ... if you call the city they're pretty quick to address this. Yes, the fix is likely ugly and this contributes to the other issues described.

Speaking of university avenue, I find the city does an amazing job with the flower plantings (and yes this is comparable to other cities if not better - there may not be as much but the quality is really great - I'll find pictures ...). Unfortunately for Toronto that's just about it though, the flower plantings on Front as well are very nice.

 

[Pro-catastrophe]

Today at lunch I saw a few City workers in the fountain on University at Queen. They weren't fixing it yet but they we looking at plans and clipboards like they were preparing to do something.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Hipster Duck, you really think that the Bloor St sidewalk upgrades are world class and unmatched within N.A.? I must admit that thought has never crossed my mind...

It's not the best "public space" in North America by a long shot, but I think it's the best sidewalk treatment I've ever seen in North America, complete with plane trees, granite paving that includes the curb and in-floor lighting. Like I said, though, the crappy highway lights, standard garbage cans, traffic signals and highway signage ruin it. Most places in North America have the opposite: the sidewalk is just poured concrete, but the lighting fixtures and the other street furniture - like the garbage cans - are specially designed. I personally think that investing in stuff that sticks out of the sidewalk offers a bigger bang for the buck than investing in the sidewalk itself.

 

[grey]

Argg don't remind me of those fountains ! I remember a couple years back the excuse was the stone is from a certain quarry and they weren't producing anything ? Anyone know the status of this.

Here's the complete story on the University Avenue fountains:

http://torontoist.com/2010/08/for_a_water_feature_situated.php

This article sheds some light on many of the things discussed in this thread. There are several factors keeping them from getting fixed.

 

[Tewder]

To one varying degree or another it's the same old BS we hear about everything that doesn't work in Toronto. Isn't this really why people voted for Ford? 'Gravy' isn't just about waste, but disfunction and bureaucracy too.... as perceived to be, at least. Heritage monument or not rework/upgrade the fittings, repair the stone basin with good ol' Ontario granite and get the damn thing functioning... oh and let both wards split the expense/responsibility. Done. Next?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Rob Ford has a love-hate issue with University Ave. On the one hand, it has that pesky public transit nonsense underground and out of the way of the "true" users of the road system. On the other hand, it has two perfectly good lanes of traffic space taken up by...landscaping (the horror). I think Ford will find a reason to not have any money to fix the fountain. After it decays a little more, we might as well just bulldoze it...right? Just keep doing that block after block, and we can have ourselves a lovely little highway right downtown.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree that a lot of it is not just a money issue. It's a lack of pride in one's work. The city spends a fortune on sidewalk treatments with trees and little granite pavers, only to dig them up a few months later and slap down some asphalt. Then they let the trees die and fill in their planters with more asphalt. This would never be acceptable in a European city, even a bankrupt one like Berlin. We also have this mentality that despite having the biggest condo boom in the developed world, we had best not do even the slightest thing to interfere with the development process lest even one precious tower project be lost. In a major European city, every single time a site is developed, the design is developed entirely in negotiation with the planning department, whose priority is the city itself and not the developer's profit. That's why most European countries have a lot fewer billionaire developers than Toronto. Unfortunately, I don't know that I'd trust the City of Toronto's planning department to make our buildings much better. The Europeans also seem to have a good grasp of what kind of building works well in an urban neighbourhood, while here we tend to prize neo-modernist show piece buildings that look great in a rendering but have a deadening effect on the street. European countries also seem to have far better construction workers, who don't ruin good materials and designs with shoddy workmanship.

Oh, and I agree that it's preposterous to blame the federal government when we just elected Rob Ford. Even when David Miller was in power--a person who indisputably had a city-building agenda, whether you agree with him or not--we didn't really accomplish all that much. I really think that part of the problem is indeed the city bureaucracy. Far too many of them don't even live in the city, don't have a stake in it, and in some cases don't even like it.

 

[taal]

Oh, and I agree that it's preposterous to blame the federal government when we just elected Rob Ford. Even when David Miller was in power--a person who indisputably had a city-building agenda, whether you agree with him or not--we didn't really accomplish all that much. I really think that part of the problem is indeed the city bureaucracy. Far too many of them don't even live in the city, don't have a stake in it, and in some cases don't even like it.

I find this hard to believe ... well if it were true, lets compare to other North American cities (though you made a good point about doing this in another thread ) Are you saying city of Toronto workers care less then those in other cities ? I figured it'd be very similar in terms of the attitude. That's very upsetting though if you argue this is a Toronto thing ... why ?

The funny part is, though I wasn't around at the time; It seems to me that in the early 90s late 80s ? Toronto was a truly loved city by it's residents ? Not sure about the rest of Canada. Or is that just my perception; If it's true what changed since then ?

I liked Miller a lot and completely agree we did nothing to improve this whatsoever. In many ways more may be accomplished under Ford's region in terms of this alone; That's pretty sad.

 

[unimaginative2]

I find this hard to believe ... well if it were true, lets compare to other North American cities (though you made a good point about doing this in another thread ) Are you saying city of Toronto workers care less then those in other cities ? I figured it'd be very similar in terms of the attitude. That's very upsetting though if you argue this is a Toronto thing ... why ?

I don't think they care less because of some personality issue, but an incredibly high percentage of them live outside the city. In many American cities, for example, city workers are required to live in the city. I don't know how many times I've been told by a city worker (let alone a Toronto cop) that the city is a cesspool.

The funny part is, though I wasn't around at the time; It seems to me that in the early 90s late 80s ? Toronto was a truly loved city by it's residents ? Not sure about the rest of Canada. Or is that just my perception; If it's true what changed since then ?

I agree that there has been a large shift. To a certain extent, it's the city's visible deterioration. The streets and such are in worse shape now than they were in the past, and Toronto really seemed to be an ascendant city. It's outside my realm of memory, too, but that's the impression that I get. In many ways, we're much better now than we used to be. People seem to forget that in 2001, there was a homeless person on practically every downtown block. That has changed dramatically for the better.

One of the things that really worries me is the crazed and irrational crime paranoia that seems to have emerged. I know a large number of people from 519 and 905 who are literally petrified to go to downtown Toronto because they literally believe that there are gunfights on the streets on a daily basis. They absolutely refuse to visit, even to change trains at Union or something like that. I know that sounds insane to people like us who live in the city but it's a real perception out there. I don't know exactly what triggered it aside from the endless Toronto Sun drumbeat but I think Jane Creba was a real turning point. If this continues to spread, to a certain extent perception can become reality.

 

[taal]

I don't think they care less because of some personality issue, but an incredibly high percentage of them live outside the city. In many American cities, for example, city workers are required to live in the city. I don't know how many times I've been told by a city worker (let alone a Toronto cop) that the city is a cesspool.



I agree that there has been a large shift. To a certain extent, it's the city's visible deterioration. The streets and such are in worse shape now than they were in the past, and Toronto really seemed to be an ascendant city. It's outside my realm of memory, too, but that's the impression that I get. In many ways, we're much better now than we used to be. People seem to forget that in 2001, there was a homeless person on practically every downtown block. That has changed dramatically for the better.

One of the things that really worries me is the crazed and irrational crime paranoia that seems to have emerged. I know a large number of people from 519 and 905 who are literally petrified to go to downtown Toronto because they literally believe that there are gunfights on the streets on a daily basis. They absolutely refuse to visit, even to change trains at Union or something like that. I know that sounds insane to people like us who live in the city but it's a real perception out there. I don't know exactly what triggered it aside from the endless Toronto Sun drumbeat but I think Jane Creba was a real turning point. If this continues to spread, to a certain extent perception can become reality.

In Canadian other Canadian cities is there another similar requirement in regards to where the workers reside.

Regarding the crime aspect; That's interesting as the majority of people I know from said areas don't feel that way at all so I doubt that's a notion widely shared. I think it's normal, you'll hear it about every large city in Canada; Well I don't know about Calgary but from friends in Vancouver and Montreal that irrationality behavior exists there as well.


It's an interesting take as overall there's probably less crime downtown then the 'Toronto the good' days (had to throw that in there after I watched a recent CP24 repeat from the late 80s; Where that term was thrown out continuously.

Roads are bad here, but is that all it takes to change the attitude of everyone ? Regerading sidewalks downtown and the like; You know, of all my friends and folks from the 905 not one of them has noticed or really cares so I doubt that's a big factor.

 

[Hipster Duck]

One of the things that really worries me is the crazed and irrational crime paranoia that seems to have emerged. I know a large number of people from 519 and 905 who are literally petrified to go to downtown Toronto because they literally believe that there are gunfights on the streets on a daily basis. They absolutely refuse to visit, even to change trains at Union or something like that. I know that sounds insane to people like us who live in the city but it's a real perception out there. I don't know exactly what triggered it aside from the endless Toronto Sun drumbeat but I think Jane Creba was a real turning point. If this continues to spread, to a certain extent perception can become reality.

No offense, unimaginative, but those people sound like wankers. I hardly think that they are in the majority, and even if there is a large number of people out there, we don't have to cater to them - our downtown is growing at a furious clip, and it gets more important with each passing day, not less. It's no surprise that they have such a defensive attitude - our world is expanding, and their's is shrinking.

 

[syn]

It's not the best "public space" in North America by a long shot, but I think it's the best sidewalk treatment I've ever seen in North America, complete with plane trees, granite paving that includes the curb and in-floor lighting. Like I said, though, the crappy highway lights, standard garbage cans, traffic signals and highway signage ruin it. Most places in North America have the opposite: the sidewalk is just poured concrete, but the lighting fixtures and the other street furniture - like the garbage cans - are specially designed. I personally think that investing in stuff that sticks out of the sidewalk offers a bigger bang for the buck than investing in the sidewalk itself.

Good point. Your earlier analogy was also right on the money. Toronto is great at getting the details wrong.

 

[grey]

One of the things that really worries me is the crazed and irrational crime paranoia that seems to have emerged. I know a large number of people from 519 and 905 who are literally petrified to go to downtown Toronto because they literally believe that there are gunfights on the streets on a daily basis. They absolutely refuse to visit, even to change trains at Union or something like that. I know that sounds insane to people like us who live in the city but it's a real perception out there. I don't know exactly what triggered it aside from the endless Toronto Sun drumbeat but I think Jane Creba was a real turning point. If this continues to spread, to a certain extent perception can become reality.

I've found that intense, pointed ridicule is the best way to deal with these people.