Blue Jays

[Jayomatic]

Halladay has been the most dominant pitcher in the past 3-5 years period. Recently sports illustrated or ESPN did a survey of players and coaches of which 2 players they thought were the best. Halladay was mentioned as the best pitcher by about 95% of players surveyed. Unless the Jay's pull a "Major League" moment and win 70% of the remaining games, were done and Halladay is going to be gone after next season. I guarantee he will get the most expensive contract of any pitcher in history from somebody.

 

[syn]

how pathetic is the wins stat? Alan Embree the other day got the win for the Rockies without throwing a pitch. BJ Ryan did the same thing back in 2003 with the Orioles.

We also have to remember that a pitcher could throw 8 innings of shutout baseball and get a no decision. His bullpen could blow it for him. Another reason why wins mean nothing.

if you want a good article to read that outlines more of these arguments: http://www.hardballcooperative.com/?p=834


Also, the Jays haven't been a crappy team. In any other division they would have been a playoff team. Is that an excuse? well it doesn't need to be because Tampa proved last year that you can get past the Sox and yankees. But at the same time, the reality is that they've been the best non-playoff team in baseball. I've been unable to find the stats (and don't feel like doing all the math myself) but I recall reading somewhere that they actually have the best win% of all non-playoff teams over the last 5-7 years.

I don't really agree with that. Crappy is perhaps too strong a word, but they haven't really been that great either. They've finsihed below .500 (or close to it) more than a few times since Ricciardi arrived. I don't agree they'd win in any other division; that's just a lot of nonsense spewed by the likes of Ricciardi...who should've been fired years ago.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Is this the beginning of the "Roy Halliday Sweepstakes"?

Everyone: I heard about this myself talked about on various NYC media outlets- my first thought was "You have got to be kidding me" but it is one of these things:

1-The Blue Jays want to avoid a contract battle with RH and are willing to trade him to the highest bidder.
2-RH is not getting along with management in some level(s)and they want to accomodate his wishes to leave the Blue Jays.

Will JP Ricciardi make a move the team may regret or can he do the right thing for the team and keep RH without breaking the bank?

I remember buying a book called "The Blue Jays and the Business of
Baseball"
explaining how things were working for the then-building Blue Jays team of the late 80s/early 90s era.

Pat Gillick(then Blue Jays GM)had a reputation of being one of the best baseball GMs back then-if he was GM now what would he do?

Thoughts by LI MIKE

 

[syn]

I don't necessarily disagree with trading him. He's 32. The Jays could get something good back. I wouldn't want Ricciardi trading him though.

 

[jn_12]

I don't really agree with that. Crappy is perhaps too strong a word, but they haven't really been that great either. They've finsihed below .500 (or close to it) more than a few times since Ricciardi arrived. I don't agree they'd win in any other division; that's just a lot of nonsense spewed by the likes of Ricciardi...who should've been fired years ago.

I agree they had some crappy years, but part of that is from having to play so many games against the east. I think it'd be fair to say they could have won the central a few times over the years. Their record against that division is pretty amazing. This year they're 18-9 and last year they were 24-12. The west would be a bit tougher, but I think it would be fair to say they'd have won a couple division championships over the last 6 or years if they weren't in the east.

Obviously it's an easy excuse, but the calibre of players they've had (especially since 2005) would be difficult for the majority of teams in the majors to match.

 

[GenerationW]

Will JP Ricciardi make a move the team may regret or can he do the right thing for the team and keep RH without breaking the bank?

Besides Halladay's contractural situation, JP probably has to move him because the Jays are taking a substantial hit at the gate this season, which is why they also want to include one of their high-priced outfielders in any trade. However, that reduces the number of bidders who can afford that, and also likely reduces how much the Jays can get in a trade since the they are asking a team to do the Jays a huge favour by taking a big contract (well, two really) off their hands.

 

[GenerationW]

Obviously it's an easy excuse, but the calibre of players they've had (especially since 2005) would be difficult for the majority of teams in the majors to match.

The majority??? If that was true, even as an AL East team they should have made the playoffs at least once in that time.

Reminds me of Leaf fans constantly overrating their own players.

 

[Build Up]

Reminds me of Leaf fans constantly overrating their own players.

Actually im a leaf fan and me and alot of people other i know always say the players suck (save for sundin when he did play) and that we need a better team. For halladay if they do trade him they will get something huge in return. like a justin morneau caliber player or maybe more. Because halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. i also read that article that someone said before and if he is not the best in baseball why is he starting the all star game?

Ill try to find a link to the article.

 

[jn_12]

The majority??? If that was true, even as an AL East team they should have made the playoffs at least once in that time.

Reminds me of Leaf fans constantly overrating their own players.

Your logic continues to be poor. You can be the 3rd best team in baseball and not make the playoffs if the top two teams are in your division. Not that they are the 3rd best team. I never said they were the best. I said they were better than 15 other teams. That is by no means a stretch.

and re: Halladay
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/mr-meticulous/article1214944/
take a read
The best part since you're a lover of the simple stats:

Heading into next week's all-star break, Halladay owns a career record of 141-69. According to the Elias Sports Bureau, of pitchers with as many victories as Halladay, only three in major-league history have won more than twice as many games as they've lost: Lefty Grove (300-141), Whitey Ford (236-106) and Pedro Martinez (214-99).

Since the 2003 season, Halladay has 38 complete games, 12 more than his closest rival, C.C. Sabathia. Halladay's total of 38 is equal to or higher than the team total of all but nine major-league clubs over the same period.

 

[syn]

Actually im a leaf fan and me and alot of people other i know always say the players suck (save for sundin when he did play) and that we need a better team. For halladay if they do trade him they will get something huge in return. like a justin morneau caliber player or maybe more. Because halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. i also read that article that someone said before and if he is not the best in baseball why is he starting the all star game?

Ill try to find a link to the article.

I don't see that happening. Trades of star pitchers rarely results in an equal value return.

Halladay probably gets a top prospect or two, a good player and perhaps another lower ceiling player.

 

[syn]

I agree they had some crappy years, but part of that is from having to play so many games against the east. I think it'd be fair to say they could have won the central a few times over the years. Their record against that division is pretty amazing. This year they're 18-9 and last year they were 24-12. The west would be a bit tougher, but I think it would be fair to say they'd have won a couple division championships over the last 6 or years if they weren't in the east.

Obviously it's an easy excuse, but the calibre of players they've had (especially since 2005) would be difficult for the majority of teams in the majors to match.

Aside from this year, the Jays have played the Yankees and Red Sox pretty well. Last year they were .500 against both of them. Unfortunately they had a terrible interleague record and pretty bad records against teams a contender should beat - like Cleveland (1-6) and Pittsburgh (1-2).

In addition, they've never reached a win total that would have won the division since Ricciardi has been around. Contrary to popular belief, the teams in these other divisions aren't pushovers.

The fact that they're in the East is a poor excuse. Unfortunately the problem is their lousy GM.

 

[jn_12]

^very true. They have played the east very well. I guess what I was going for is that instead of playing half their season at .500 against teams in the east, they would play half their season at .700 against the central.

 

[GenerationW]

Your logic continues to be poor. You can be the 3rd best team in baseball and not make the playoffs if the top two teams are in your division. Not that they are the 3rd best team. I never said they were the best. I said they were better than 15 other teams. That is by no means a stretch.

No, you said majority, but now you're qualifying that majority as being a bare majority of 15 instead of perhaps 2/3 or 3/4. In that case, as the 15th best team in baseball, they have achieved exactly what they deserved -- zero playoff appearances, and it would have been thus no matter what division they were in.

and re: Halladay
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/mr-meticulous/article1214944/
take a read
The best part since you're a lover of the simple stats:

The question that wasn't properly answered from that article:

Beyond the numbers, just who would the Blue Jays be losing?

Someone they've won absolutely nothing with.

I reserve titles like "greatest pitcher in baseball today" for guys who have, at least once in their career, pitched in important September games (never mind October), though I should probably ask for twice from a guy who put up an ERA over 10 (!!!) in his second year as a starter. Be the difference and raise the level of your (15th best) team at least once in your career. That's hardly too much to ask for! Until then, he flatters to deceive.

And by the way, since God came of his recent injury, the team is 0-3 in the games He started. Real walking-on-water, turning-water-into-wine stuff.

 

[Translude15]

I don't really agree with that. Crappy is perhaps too strong a word, but they haven't really been that great either. They've finsihed below .500 (or close to it) more than a few times since Ricciardi arrived. I don't agree they'd win in any other division; that's just a lot of nonsense spewed by the likes of Ricciardi...who should've been fired years ago.

They've actually only finished below .500 3 times during his tenure. 2002, 2004 and 2005. Overall, the team is at around .500 during his tenure, and has had 4 winning seasons, several of which they had a legitimate chance at the Wild Card. If in another division, teams of the past would definately have qualified for a playoff position.

Many like to make the GM the scapegoat, but in all honesty can the guy be blamed for mediocre hitting and a rash of injuries to the pitching staff? Take the current 09 season for say. In one run games the Jays are something like 11-21. Reverse the win-loss differential and the team is not far off the AL East lead. Untimely hitting by veterans expected to perform seems to be the demise of this team. Perhaps the work ethic, drive and heart of these athletes should be questioned, or perhaps the environment in which they play in does not promote a good enough desire to win.

The team has utilized 12 DIFFERENT starting pitchers so far this season due to injuries. Maybe we the fans should start inquiring about the credibility of the team's trainers and medical staff. How about Rogers Communications, which has seemingly lost interest in the club after Ted bit the dust. Surely the nation's largest telecommunications company can fork over some much needed dough for some major additions to the roster.

It's irrational to blame JP for the club's misfortunes. He's a good baseball guy who has brought in a slew of young talent over the years through scouting and precise decision making. There's a whole array of interconnected reasons why this team has failed to make the playoffs for so long.

 

[syn]

They've actually only finished below .500 3 times during his tenure. 2002, 2004 and 2005. Overall, the team is at around .500 during his tenure, and has had 4 winning seasons, several of which they had a legitimate chance at the Wild Card.

They are below .500 overall in his tenure. This year they will likely finish below .500, the 4th time in 8 seasons. They barely finished above .500 in 2007.

And I'd love to know which seasons they had a legitimate chance at the Wild Card, because they've never been even remotely close in the Ricciardi era.

If in another division, teams of the past would definately have qualified for a playoff position.

You're buying what he's selling.

Many like to make the GM the scapegoat, but in all honesty can the guy be blamed for mediocre hitting and a rash of injuries to the pitching staff? Take the current 09 season for say. In one run games the Jays are something like 11-21. Reverse the win-loss differential and the team is not far off the AL East lead. Untimely hitting by veterans expected to perform seems to be the demise of this team. Perhaps the work ethic, drive and heart of these athletes should be questioned, or perhaps the environment in which they play in does not promote a good enough desire to win.

The team has utilized 12 DIFFERENT starting pitchers so far this season due to injuries. Maybe we the fans should start inquiring about the credibility of the team's trainers and medical staff. How about Rogers Communications, which has seemingly lost interest in the club after Ted bit the dust. Surely the nation's largest telecommunications company can fork over some much needed dough for some major additions to the roster.

It's irrational to blame JP for the club's misfortunes. He's a good baseball guy who has brought in a slew of young talent over the years through scouting and precise decision making. There's a whole array of interconnected reasons why this team has failed to make the playoffs for so long.

And all of them come back to one man - Ricciardi. He is one of the worst GMs in the game. In 8 years he managed to make the farm system worse and hasn't accomplished anything he claimed he would when he arrived. As the GM, he is responsible for the team and analyzing players. He's the one who chose to hand out contracts to players who weren't worth it (Burnett, Ryan, etc.) and he's the one responsible for the $40 million - $50 million in contracts the team/Rogers has had to swallow because he decided to let them go or pay them to play for other teams.

He simply has to go.