vatche
Senior Member
Maybe, because compared to other cities, Toronto is really under served in the upscale department. But then again, the rich can always go to new York or Chicago to shop.
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ACT7
Active Member
Well, NYC is what is. But I would argue that Chicago isn't necessarily a bigger draw for the wealthy than Toronto. In fact, I would imagine that recently it's the other way around. The boutiques will come, it's just a matter of time. I totally agree that Toronto is underserved in the upscale department but only from a stand-alone boutique perspective. You can pretty much find anything in the world here at some level.
vatche
Senior Member
Actually if these high end, stand alone boutiques were to come to Toronto it would attract a lot of tourists too. In town just to shop.
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gabe
Guest
Chicago is a huge hub for wealthy international tourists, its always has been. They have more 5 star hotels and restaurants than all of Canada put together. In time Toronto will catch up. Look how fast Toronto has grown in just 10 years with all the luxury hotels
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ACT7
Active Member
Totally agree.
ACT7
Active Member
Maybe historically. Toronto has more overseas tourists than Chicago does on an annual basis and it is becoming predominantly from China, India, Brazil, Russia and the Middle East so I would argue that in terms of wealth, the difference is negligible. Also, where is there any stat that shows Chicago has more 5 star hotels and restaurants than all of Canada combined???
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gabe
Guest
Harry Rosen readies itself for retail foreign invasion http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...f-for-retail-foreign-invasion/article2313807/
"Mr. Rosen’s deliberations about betting again on women’s wear underline the lengths that domestic retailers must go to today to keep up with a fast-changing retail environment. Foreign merchants, including Nordstrom Inc. (JWN-N49.11-0.42-0.85%) and even key suppliers such as Hugo Boss, are rushing to set up shops here. Canada’s relatively stable economy makes it an attractive venue for international expansion, but a more crowded field threatens to steal business away from incumbents, including Harry Rosen.
“It’s not business as usual,” said Mr. Rosen, 55, chief executive officer and the second generation to run the family business, founded almost 58 years ago by his father Harry, 80 and retired. “In the next five years, there are going to be winners and losers. I am very confident that we have the direction to be on the right side of that equation.”
Today, the CEO is racing to cash in on the burgeoning demand from thirtysomething men for everything from $5,000 Tom Ford suits to $800 Denham jeans, while global luxury players such as Gucci and Hermès focus more than ever on men’s products.
“He’s taking an offensive strategy now before the potential entry of Nordstrom,” said Antony Karabus, a Toronto-based retail consultant who has advised luxury chains across North America. “There’s a lot of untapped spending among men. … But I struggle with the female side. There’s more risk there.”
"Mr. Rosen’s deliberations about betting again on women’s wear underline the lengths that domestic retailers must go to today to keep up with a fast-changing retail environment. Foreign merchants, including Nordstrom Inc. (JWN-N49.11-0.42-0.85%) and even key suppliers such as Hugo Boss, are rushing to set up shops here. Canada’s relatively stable economy makes it an attractive venue for international expansion, but a more crowded field threatens to steal business away from incumbents, including Harry Rosen.
“It’s not business as usual,” said Mr. Rosen, 55, chief executive officer and the second generation to run the family business, founded almost 58 years ago by his father Harry, 80 and retired. “In the next five years, there are going to be winners and losers. I am very confident that we have the direction to be on the right side of that equation.”
Today, the CEO is racing to cash in on the burgeoning demand from thirtysomething men for everything from $5,000 Tom Ford suits to $800 Denham jeans, while global luxury players such as Gucci and Hermès focus more than ever on men’s products.
“He’s taking an offensive strategy now before the potential entry of Nordstrom,” said Antony Karabus, a Toronto-based retail consultant who has advised luxury chains across North America. “There’s a lot of untapped spending among men. … But I struggle with the female side. There’s more risk there.”
pw20
Active Member
AAA 5 diamond ratings. Toronto didn't have an "official" 5-diamond hotel until the Ritz opened. I believe the only other 5 diamond hotel is in BC.
http://www.aaa.com/AAA/AAADiamonds/Awards/2012/5D_Lodgings_012012.pdf
As for Bloor street and Toronto being under-serviced by international high street retail... CDN discretionary income is lower due to higher taxes.
Will our retail be offset by international tourists? Perhaps. But that will take time to shake-out - you'd have to prove that Toronto's overseas tourists are indeed coming from the above countries and are here to shop, especially when places like China blow Toronto's shopping (even high-end shopping) out of the water.
vatche
Senior Member
Having said all this , the Toronto market has generally improved in bounds and leaps compared to the 80's. The only upscale stores on bloor were cole Haan, emporio Armani and Hermes. Look at it now. it is much much better than it used to be. A lot of international stores r opening up shops in the city, but it still has a long way to go.
ACT7
Active Member
Well, Chicago's median household income is in and around $40K whereas Toronto's is closer to $70K so I would argue that the average Torontonian has more disposable income than the average Chicagoan. The super rich in each city are probably reasonably close since Toronto is a head office city much like Chicago is.
http://www.citymayors.com/economics/richest_cities.html
That being said, I don't disagree that Chicago has more high-end retail stand-alone boutiques but I don't believe it's because of the fact that it is a magnet as a tourist destination for the wealthy.
The article below is not related to retail as such but it makes my point...
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1096334--tony-toronto-a-haven-for-stealth-wealth
As for the hotels, okay Chicago has four right now, but by the end of the year Toronto will have the same - most likely. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I like Chicago and this is certainly not a city vs city thing. Other than the increase in tourists coming from the countries that I named, I can't prove that they are here to shop, but I think they most certainly shop when they are here. Yes, China has plenty of luxury shopping but so do a lot of places - if you don't visit there though, you won't shop there. I totally agree though that Toronto needs more and is definitely on track to having more.
On a side note, I noticed that there was some light construction in the retail space right at the corner of Avenue and Bloor in the Hyatt. No rumours as of yet, but the lease sign has been down for months now.
prosperegal
Senior Member
Does anyone have updates on the status of Intermix?
pw20
Active Member
Sorry Act to pick on you - but you realize that look at median GROSS incomes is sort of irrelevant? You're also looking at GTA facts versus city of Chicago facts, not GTA versus Chicagoland stats which would be a more apt comparison (Chicagoland is closer to 61k [American])...
I also used the term disposable - Americans traditionally pay lower taxes so their disposable incomes tend to be higher. Of course they have no health care - but when you really want that Tiffany bangle in your 20's, you're probably not thinking of the kidney dialysis you may need when you're 70.
In general American cities have significantly larger high-end retail establishments than Canadian cities. Look at the number of high-end stores at the King of Prussia Mall (which don't have CDN outlets) or the type of stores that are in the big mall just outside of Detroit (a city which has unemployment that is probably triple Toronto's, with less head offices etc...). Or even look at the retail along Newberry in Boston, which blows Bloor out of the water, even though Greater Boston isn't as large as the GTA.
Third factor - high end needs scale - its expensive to open 1 store in a marketplace - which is what Canada is for a lot of high-end retailers. Gucci has 1 or 2 stores in Canada. Tiffany's for a decade only had a Toronto store etc... There are significant barriers to entry when operating a retail establishment in Canada, a lot of high end retailers probably don't think its worth the effort simply to open 1 outlet.
ACT7
Active Member
Hey, I don't disagree with all of that. There are definitely barriers to entry in Canada that don't exist in the U.S. There are cities in the States that you look at and wonder how in the hell they landed some of the stores that they did. My original point was simply that I don't believe international tourists flock to Chicago to shop any more than they do here. NYC, yes, obviously.
I don't think I was comparing GTA to city of Chicago. It was a city to city comparison. Regardless, your points are well taken and I really don't disagree with your observations about U.S. cities having more. But like I said (and I think you said the same), things are definitely changing for the better here.
ACT7
Active Member
This is Cushman & Wakefield's Q4 retail market report for the GTA. Overall it's very positive and encouraging for 2012 and beyond. I suppose this could have been posted under general retail but it outlines some Bloor Street trends as well, so here it is.
http://www.cushwake.com/cwmbs4q11/pdf/retail_toronto_4q11.pdf
http://www.cushwake.com/cwmbs4q11/pdf/retail_toronto_4q11.pdf
vatche
Senior Member
What kind of upsets me is that all these cool stores r in malls. For example, Juicy couture, le creuset, Ben Sherman, true religion, Abercrombie, j crew. I would like it if they opened places on bloor, then the whole bloor strip
becomes a great shopping destination for all types of shoppers. Michigan ave is like that. Even top shop is opening a place there, along with filenes basement and Walgreens drugstore.. So people can buy anything they want there. For us we have eaton's then queen west then bloor. Furthermore u need a taxi to get from one to the other. It's not fluid where one neighborhood opens up to the other. 5 th ave was like that from what I noticed too.
becomes a great shopping destination for all types of shoppers. Michigan ave is like that. Even top shop is opening a place there, along with filenes basement and Walgreens drugstore.. So people can buy anything they want there. For us we have eaton's then queen west then bloor. Furthermore u need a taxi to get from one to the other. It's not fluid where one neighborhood opens up to the other. 5 th ave was like that from what I noticed too.