Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

Lol I was on a Air India Jet coming from Indian and there were high cross winds at Pearson.

The pilot went I would imagine 25% faster then usual and came down steep and had the reverse jets going full blast. The plane landed and veered left and right like 4 times and then the plane finally stooped right near the end of the runway near Dixie road. The plane also started the decent towards the airport late and was like going straight down into the runway.

like what the hell???


The pilot took all the way from Airport Road to Dixie road to stop the plane.

Some Airlines have nice landings, Air India has very hard landings. The Landing in London was very fast but the plane stopped very very very fast.
 
At Toronto Island there is a line painted on the runway that Porter pilots must touch the runway before passing. This is due to the short length of the runway and not wanting to leave anything to chance. Also, the glide slope is set to deal with the possibility of boats and other obstacles so the possibility of gliding to a gentle touchdown is far more unlikely than an aircraft landing on long runways at Pearson. There are also stricter rules on runway conditions.
 
EnviroTO said:
At Toronto Island there is a line painted on the runway that Porter pilots must touch the runway before passing.
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Just to note, Porter landings seem to be commonly rough at many airports which do not have this restriction, Midway and Newark most recently experienced.
 
casaguy said:
Now, I could be called a seasoned flyer but I'm by no means an aviation expert. But to this layman, on both legs of the trip the pilot came in for a landing WAY, WAY, WAY TOO FAST and WAY TOO CROOKED and SLAMMED the plane into the tarmac...... I assume this maneovre was intentional by the pilot to fight off a crosswind?
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Most definitely a bad cross. No pilot would want to land crooked. Usually they take out the crab angle at the last moment and land straight. As for the hard landing...if in doubt, land it firm. Sometimes, this is done regardless of runway length....just to allow the pilot to maintain directional control on the ground....you don't want a wing to pick up a gust and start popping a wheelie on one side with commercial aircraft.

casaguy said:
I spoke to a buddy of mine tonight who's been a pilot of the big boy jets all his life. He's also found Porter to make extra hard landings when he's on them. A smooth, touchless Air Canada style landing is rare with Porter... but does happen.
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That's pilot bluster coming from a guy who regularly uses the auto-land feature and has 10 000 feet of runway to play with. I've flown Porter a few times and as a pilot I have never found their landings to be sub-par. Perhaps your friend doesn't recall what it was like to fly smaller metal.

ShonTron said:
Indeed I feel the landings are a bit harder - perhaps you feel it more in a smaller aircraft?
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You most certainly do. Smaller shocks, usually higher structural stiffness, etc.

EnviroTO said:
At Toronto Island there is a line painted on the runway that Porter pilots must touch the runway before passing.
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That's the displaced threshold marking and pilots are required to touchdown AFTER the line not before it. The runway area before it is not maintained.

EnviroTO said:
This is due to the short length of the runway and not wanting to leave anything to chance.
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The Q400 has a shorter landing field length than taking off. Even if they miss the numbers (which almost never happens), they'd still have room to stop. Might be embarrassing to backtrack though.

EnviroTO said:
Also, the glide slope is set to deal with the possibility of boats and other obstacles so the possibility of gliding to a gentle touchdown is far more unlikely than an aircraft landing on long runways at Pearson. There are also stricter rules on runway conditions.
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Not true at all. Please show me the appropriate reference in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement to back up the statement. YTZ has a standard 3 degree glidelsope. And there are no specific rules on runway usage other than the restrictions placed on the airport itself (no jets, etc.).

Darkstar416 said:
Point taken, although, "air pockets" do not really exist.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/columnist/getline/2006-01-09-ask-the-captain_x.htm
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CAT tends to occur higher up in altitude. Wind shear though is a danger closer to the ground and can result in some rather hard landings and has caused crashes in the past.
 
I used to have to stand near the planes as they started up to get the push back times... I'm pretty sure my hearing isn't quite what it was 2 years ago.

Only once did I ever see a pilot do the crab landing at Porter. She basically got fist bumps from every pilot she saw for the next week.

And I only flew once with Porter where the landing was kinda iffy, and it was during a pretty big thunderstorm. The plane was being knocked around quite a bit in the air as we were approaching and flying through the low ceiling. It was the only time I've ever had white knuckles. I think the smaller planes definitely get pushed around a bit more. It makes sense really because you're in something that's the size of a greyhound bus. Think about how you can feel even the wind from the Burlington Skyway when you're in one, so of course you're going to feel it in a plane thousands of feet in the air. One thing's for certain though - After working for Porter I truly saw just how safe planes are. They're beasts. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to work with some of the large body jets. It's really a marvel.
 
jn_12 said:
I used to have to stand near the planes as they started up to get the push back times... I'm pretty sure my hearing isn't quite what it was 2 years ago.

Only once did I ever see a pilot do the crab landing at Porter. She basically got fist bumps from every pilot she saw for the next week.
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Crosswind landings are never fun and always challenging...and its where the professional pilot truly earns their pay.

jn_12 said:
One thing's for certain though - After working for Porter I truly saw just how safe planes are. They're beasts.
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You aren't the only one that thinks that. That's why claims about how challenging it is to land at YTZ make me laugh. A Q400 was built for and does operate in far more challenging conditions on a regular basis.
 
lordmandeep said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE&feature=related


lol this feels like If someone was on Microsoft flight simulator and trying to land a plane.
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And here's want it looks like from the inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-ArLYsloI&feature=related

That was one crazy airport. Wonder what Toronto downtowners would say if they had to deal with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyU9OLqQ8XA

Obviously, I would never wish that for Toronto. However, videos like this should put to rest the ridiculous argument that a city can't develop with an airport nearby.

And for entertainment value, here's St. Maarten:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAfQwDizpRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBV-L7mnls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTLGsEErWJY&feature=related

...somehow they don't seem to have a problem having a beach, resorts and an international airport handling "Heavies" in close proximity to each other!

lordmandeep said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY&feature=related

this one is beyond words
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As the phrase goes...."Shear happens."
 
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kEiThZ said:
That's the displaced threshold marking and pilots are required to touchdown AFTER the line not before it. The runway area before it is not maintained.
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Incorrect. I am aware what a displaced threshold is and I am not talking about one. Porter set a line on the runway for their operations and their pilots must touch down before that line. Other pilots can use their own discretion. Talk to an island air traffic controller or Porter pilot for details. Not everything is in a flight supplement such as the frequency to tune the radio to in order to turn on the runway lights after hours... it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

kEiThZ said:
Not true at all. Please show me the appropriate reference in the Canada Air Pilot or the Canada Flight Supplement to back up the statement. YTZ has a standard 3 degree glidelsope. And there are no specific rules on runway usage other than the restrictions placed on the airport itself (no jets, etc.).
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There are a lot of boats around in the summer. They stop using the crosswind runway for flights over the western gap in the summer for general aviation due to boat traffic. They installed marine radar in the control tower to keep track of boats which could be making an incursion into the landing zone. Most airports have enough space so that pilots can start reducing the rate of decent before reaching the threshold but the situation at Toronto Island doesn't really allow for it.
 
EnviroTO said:
Incorrect. I am aware what a displaced threshold is and I am not talking about one. Porter set a line on the runway for their operations and their pilots must touch down before that line. Other pilots can use their own discretion. Talk to an island air traffic controller or Porter pilot for details. Not everything is in a flight supplement such as the frequency to tune the radio to in order to turn on the runway lights after hours... it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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This I'd love to see. It's illegal to just use any markings you feel like on a runway. Especially for a national airport. TC must be handing out exemptions left and right these days. Get your ATC friend to get a picture if you can.
Beyond the legality of it, adding a touch-down line seems kinda dumb. Every landing is different and you just judge based on the wind, weight of the aircraft, etc. I wonder how they adjust for conditions. And in a short-field situation (which this situation is not really) pilots aim to touchdown on the numbers or the threshold markings and use the runway distance markers to judge how much room they have...your co-pilot calls out how much room you're burning by 1000 ft as you depart or land usually to judge whether a go-around or abort (for take-offs) is necessary. You really can't get more distance than that unless you are aiming short of the threshold (and that'd be pretty dicey). The concept of a touchdown line seems rather amateur to me especially when the pilot should be aiming for the numbers each and every time. Also, makes me wonder how they see some skinny line in the winter, in a storm, etc. Their pilots must all have better than 20/20!

EnviroTO said:
There are a lot of boats around in the summer. They stop using the crosswind runway for flights over the western gap in the summer for general aviation due to boat traffic. They installed marine radar in the control tower to keep track of boats which could be making an incursion into the landing zone. Most airports have enough space so that pilots can start reducing the rate of decent before reaching the threshold but the situation at Toronto Island doesn't really allow for it.
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I've flown at the Island in the summer and used the crosswind runway...though it's been a few years now. I've even been in a military CC-130 doing low and over's with the rear ramp down using the cross-wind runway in July. There has been no NOTAM or modification to the CFS or CAP that I know of prohibiting use of the runway (and that would be in there). If you have it, please post. They might X off runways for maintenance and such...or because they cost too much to keep in operation. But closing off a runway because everyone flares too early and boats get in the way is a rather stupid excuse if it is true. For one, if you are flaring that early, it means you are missing the runway. I am sure the controllers adjust usage if there's an incursion or a boat needs to get through. In general though, I don't know any GA pilot who flares that far out beyond the threshold when you have that much runway (and GA does not use up the whole runway anyway) so I don't see why any of them would have to land on the numbers...and if they did flare that far out and I don't see how they would not end up in the drink! If there's interference, the controller could simply ask them to land long a little to avoid any potential conflicts with tall boats in the approach path or to go-around for another approach when the ship has cleared. I know there's a preference to avoid using the cross-wind runway, because of its length, noise abatement (traffic pattern right over the Islands), etc. But I haven't heard about summer closure because of boats getting in the way. Are you sure its not event specific? Like when the Tall Ships come to town? Seems to me there's more than enough room to clear the standard 50ft obstacle before the threshold (over the displaced runway), using an unmodified glideslope. I am pretty sure you're well over a 100 feet over the yacht club...and closer to 200 -250 ft right at the shore line.
 
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I'm not sure what the line looks like or if it is deliniated with an object at the side of the runway. I only know that Porter has special rules for its pilots that they must be down before a line on the runway. I imagine it is simply airline management being over cautious not wanting to leave anything to chance knowing a slight overrun would end their business. Maybe SAS's Q400 issues or the Air France overrun at Pearson was fresh on their minds when they made the rules. They also have stricter rules for runway contamination and the airport has gotten new top of the line snow removal equipment that is not normally seen at an airport that size... as well as new fire equipment. The Port Authority and TC bend over backwards to make things work for Porter from what I have heard.

For aircraft other than helicopters taking off on 33 and landing on 15 doesn't occur at all during the summer months. They do have procedures at the airport to keep an eye on boat traffic as well though. I understand there is a rather large tall ship (bigger than the Kajama but I forget the name) that when just outside the buoys is a bit of a concern.
 
Most Torontonians support pedestrian tunnel to City Centre Airport

An independent survey has found 62 per cent of Torontonians support a pedestrian tunnel to improve access to the City Centre Airport.

The survey by Pollara Strategic Insights was launched by the Toronto Port Authority in light of the federal infrastructure money that has been made available for major projects.

The 500-person poll was conducted on July 5-6, 2009.

Only 21 per cent of respondents were "strongly opposed" to the tunnel, while 10 per cent were somewhat opposed" to it.
 
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