Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[TOareaFan]

There's an intermediate step. Porter moves out of the island to Pearson or shuts down.

You left that bit out in your first description...seemed you were saying we just declare the current operating environment no longer safe but refuse to allow for bringing it to safe standard....you left out that, in that plan, Porter would have already left before that.

There is no more growth potential at Billy Bishop without expansion to popular routes only accessible by jets. Deluce started this airline with the intention of selling it like he has with his other businesses. He's already begun that process by selling the terminal at a healthy profit.

And you don't think the people who bought the terminal building (and assumed the land lease) sought and got some sort of assurances that there would be, you know, an airport running out of that terminal?

Building the island airport with a jet airline on it while using mostly taxpayer money to finance the infrastructure was a risky bet and he almost got what he wanted. He lost that bet.

.

Whether he won or lost is for the future to tell us....certainly looks like he lost this particular part about expansion for and allowing quieter planes.....but what part of the airline was built using mostly taxpayer money? what major airport infrastructure? Seems to me investor money built the airline and ticket buyers are providing them with whatever return they are getting and the infrastructure seems to have been financed by user fees.

 

[TOareaFan]

No, a small portion of Toronto would benefit from an expanded airport. The billions of dollars of investment in making the waterfront a place for people would not benefit by expanding the industrial use of the waterfront. The airport is at capacity with ever worsening issues caused by building a major regional airport in a tiny corner meant for small aviation operations.

We already have a major airport and now we have an express rail connection that one can argue gets you faster to Pearson than you could get to Eireann Quay from a Bay Street office.

about 10 minutes more. (in my experience).....but time to airport is not the only benefit of YTZ

 

[MetroMan]

But what part of the airline was built using mostly taxpayer money? what major airport infrastructure? Seems to me investor money built the airline and ticket buyers are providing them with whatever return they are getting and the infrastructure seems to have been financed by user fees.

Aside from the millions we already spent studying and debating the aspirations of a single private business, the expansion of the airport was forcing the city to deal with transportation infrastructure costs on the land side. Deluce expected the city to build an extension of Don Leckie Way to loop into Eireann Quay and improvements to the foot of Bathurst to be paid for by taxpayers. All of this, including the runway extension itself would be paid for by the taxpayer because airport improvement fees could never cover the up to $1B in investment needed at the airport and its surroundings to bring it up to regulation and resolve the traffic problems that it has created. All this for one airline?

 

[MetroMan]

about 10 minutes more. (in my experience).....but time to airport is not the only benefit of YTZ

If I'm at Union Station and I need to take a cab or a shuttle to Billy Bishop, it'll take 20 minutes in light traffic, substantially more in rush hour. Meanwhile, I can hop on the train and be at Pearson in a guaranteed 25 minutes.

Here's what it would take right now, on a Saturday:

 

[christiesplits]

To expand the business and grow its value, Porter will have to move some of its operations to Pearson and I don't believe Deluce is interested in going head to head with the big players. That means that Porter has reached its peak value and if he's going to sell it, Deluce knows that it has to be soon. Once he's exhausted all his moves, I expect that he'll sell Porter to one of those big players or a foreign investor and go on to building his next business. If Air Canada or Westjet buys it, they'll eventually lose .

There has been a rumour swirling for quite some time that Deluce was looking to cash out and that WestJet was the most likely target.

 

[TOareaFan]

If I'm at Union Station and I need to take a cab or a shuttle to Billy Bishop, it'll take 20 minutes in light traffic, substantially more in rush hour. Meanwhile, I can hop on the train and be at Pearson in a guaranteed 25 minutes.

Here's what it would take right now, on a Saturday:

I was just speaking from personal experience......have done both...walk from my office at King and University to, either, the Starbucks/Porter shuttle at Front street or go south of Front into skywalk and catch the UP to Pearson....seems (comparing last 2 or 3 trips of each) to take about 10 minutes more to get to Pearson.

Never done it on a Saturday though.

 

[nfitz]

No, a small portion of Toronto would benefit from an expanded airport. The billions of dollars of investment in making the waterfront a place for people would not benefit by expanding the industrial use of the waterfront. The airport is at capacity with ever worsening issues caused by building a major regional airport in a tiny corner meant for small aviation operations.

Well that's where the beauty of filling in more of the lake comes in. Doesn't require any more land.

City's can't be nothing but residential and recreational. You need a good mix of everything to create a strong and vibrant city.

We already have a major airport and now we have an express rail connection that one can argue gets you faster to Pearson than you could get to Eireann Quay from a Bay Street office.

With Crossrail providing a quick 12-stop line from Canary Wharf near London City Airport to Heathrow, should the close London City Airport?

 

[TOareaFan]

There has been a rumour swirling for quite some time that Deluce was looking to cash out and that WestJet was the most likely target.

Do the people starting/spreading these rumours ever acknowledge the decision is not his? He is, hardly, the leading financial interest in that airline.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

City's can't be nothing but residential and recreational. You need a good mix of everything to create a strong and vibrant city.

That's exactly why so many parts of Toronto are boring. Not enough of a good mix.

 

[muller877]

There's an intermediate step. Porter moves out of the island to Pearson or shuts down.

There is no more growth potential at Billy Bishop without expansion to popular routes only accessible by jets. Deluce started this airline with the intention of selling it like he has with his other businesses. He's already begun that process by selling the terminal at a healthy profit. Building the island airport with a jet airline on it while using mostly taxpayer money to finance the infrastructure was a risky bet and he almost got what he wanted. He lost that bet.

To expand the business and grow its value, Porter will have to move some of its operations to Pearson and I don't believe Deluce is interested in going head to head with the big players. That means that Porter has reached its peak value and if he's going to sell it, Deluce knows that it has to be soon. Once he's exhausted all his moves, I expect that he'll sell Porter to one of those big players or a foreign investor and go on to building his next business. If Air Canada or Westjet buys it, they'll eventually lose interest because it'll be such a small part of their business and the thing may just fold.

There's hardly any chance that Porter will ever last to the end of the tripartite agreement in 2033. The irony is that Porter has been pushing out the small aviation companies to other airstrips and helipads so when Porter eventually leaves or folds, there will be little in the way of just shutting the whole thing down because it's not up to regulation and can't be made to.

If not Porter someone else will be flying out of the airport in 2033. And without a tripartite agreement the Feds (whomever they are at the time) may just decide to build the extension and let any type of jet in at any time of the day...city be damned. It's a gamble the NOJETS group is taking. They may be shooting themselves in the foot.

And a lot of the people in this group are on land that the Toronto Port Authority GAVE them to build their beloved housing coop. Talk about ungracious.

Can Pearson handle the additional load from Porter? They can't without the additional piers and maybe upgrading the runways. Pearson has managed not to need the piers because they are on average getting bigger and bigger planes. Some of that reason is Porter is siphoning off the smaller planes. I don't think Pearson could handle the additional planes taking off during the busy times that Porter uses.

I will be very interested in how the community reacts to a second agreement that comes for renewal at the same time...the National Yacht Club. It has a 50 year lease on PUBLIC lands.

The other Yacht club in the area has a lease also up for renewal in 2025-ish.

Who will support a airport that benefits the hundred of thousands that fly though there every year WHILE supporting a private club that erects a 20 foot chain link fence to block access to the water's edge so 1500 people can use the area?

If we had access to this area we can use the breakwall to create a bike trail from Ontario Place's new park that would be monumental. Water on both sides and some cool views of planes taking off while you are biking (and we can still have a yacht club....just not a walled off private compound)

 

[MetroMan]

In 2033, the Portlands, the area around Exhibition and Ontario Place, waterfront communities and Fort York will be so built up that proposing an expansion of the island airport will be like building an airport at Trinity Bellwoods Park. In the meantime, the Liberals have at least 4 years to make it very hard to extend that runway. Trudeau will likely be Prime Minister for 8 or more years while the Conservatives sort out their leadership and run in an election or two. By then, the (pardon the pun) train will have left the station. Porter missed their shot when both Harper and Rob Ford were in power.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

If not Porter someone else will be flying out of the airport in 2033. And without a tripartite agreement the Feds (whomever they are at the time) may just decide to build the extension and let any type of jet in at any time of the day...city be damned. It's a gamble the NOJETS group is taking. They may be shooting themselves in the foot.

And a lot of the people in this group are on land that the Toronto Port Authority GAVE them to build their beloved housing coop. Talk about ungracious.

Can Pearson handle the additional load from Porter? They can't without the additional piers and maybe upgrading the runways. Pearson has managed not to need the piers because they are on average getting bigger and bigger planes. Some of that reason is Porter is siphoning off the smaller planes. I don't think Pearson could handle the additional planes taking off during the busy times that Porter uses.

I will be very interested in how the community reacts to a second agreement that comes for renewal at the same time...the National Yacht Club. It has a 50 year lease on PUBLIC lands.

The other Yacht club in the area has a lease also up for renewal in 2025-ish.

Who will support a airport that benefits the hundred of thousands that fly though there every year WHILE supporting a private club that erects a 20 foot chain link fence to block access to the water's edge so 1500 people can use the area?

If we had access to this area we can use the breakwall to create a bike trail from Ontario Place's new park that would be monumental. Water on both sides and some cool views of planes taking off while you are biking (and we can still have a yacht club....just not a walled off private compound)

How did you make your choices on what words to EMPHASIZE?

Also - Pearson should most definitely build the new piers when necessary. That's the plan.

And - did I miss something, or did you just propose building the jets extension, and then mollify the hoi polloi by using it for a bike trail??? Hahaha...

 

[dowlingm]

Porter at Pearson is a non-runner, in my opinion. The Porter value proposition is the island airport. If you remember Westjet's early years at Pearson AC fought them tooth and nail. Porter would have to fight both.

 

[muller877]

How did you make your choices on what words to EMPHASIZE?

Also - Pearson should most definitely build the new piers when necessary. That's the plan.

And - did I miss something, or did you just propose building the jets extension, and then mollify the hoi polloi by using it for a bike trail??? Hahaha...

I use to live right by the airport...probably the closest to the noise of any one. And guess what? I didn't mind it (I moved out in anticipation of the streetcar construction). I find it amusing that everyone insists that a great waterfront and a working airport are mutually exclusive. It isn't.

In respect of the private yacht clubs I was showing the opportunities in the neighbourhood that can be done while an airport is still there. How to improve the western waterfront by giving access to people. Bathurst to Coronation Park is a dead zone for tourists and there is huge potential....we just have to figure out how to use it. Little Norway Park, the parking lot, the park at the foot of Stadium and the private yacht clubs is a huge publically owned area that maybe less that 1% of tourists would want to go to.

And who blames them? A breakwall that is falling apart, parks that are disjointed and a bike trail that avoids all the parks.

Let's make what we have better...while still using a great resource to the tourist and business sector.

I wish there was a non-partisan survey of residents along the waterfront both on the current and proposed extension to hear the actual thoughts (vs the "survey" that skews it one way or the other). I personally think the current surveys give responses by those that either hate or love the airport and the majority of people don't respond because they don't even think about it.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I use to live right by the airport...probably the closest to the noise of any one. And guess what? I didn't mind it (I moved out in anticipation of the streetcar construction). I find it amusing that everyone insists that a great waterfront and a working airport are mutually exclusive. It isn't.

In respect of the private yacht clubs I was showing the opportunities in the neighbourhood that can be done while an airport is still there. How to improve the western waterfront by giving access to people. Bathurst to Coronation Park is a dead zone for tourists and there is huge potential....we just have to figure out how to use it. Little Norway Park, the parking lot, the park at the foot of Stadium and the private yacht clubs is a huge publically owned area that maybe less that 1% of tourists would want to go to.

And who blames them? A breakwall that is falling apart, parks that are disjointed and a bike trail that avoids all the parks.

Let's make what we have better...while still using a great resource to the tourist and business sector.

I wish there was a non-partisan survey of residents along the waterfront both on the current and proposed extension to hear the actual thoughts (vs the "survey" that skews it one way or the other). I personally think the current surveys give responses by those that either hate or love the airport and the majority of people don't respond because they don't even think about it.

Sorry, other than the fact that you don't seem to like private yacht clubs, I don't get what you think would improve the concrete breakwall, along a deadwater channel, across from an airport, to the point it would become a tourist attraction. Improving the current Waterfront Trail, improve the airport access at the bottom of Eireann Quay, hopefully make some improvements to Little Norway at the same time, sure. But really what they need to do is re-purpose the silos and build upon the Irish park and walkway to the east.

Leaving the private yacht clubs in place, the naval reserve building, the airport? All are just fine. Fix the access and the landscaping and do something with the silos.