Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

So I just have to go to that one website, which is biased against the jets. When formulating an argument, it is best to hear both sides of the story, hear from experts on both sides and then formulate an opinion on the topic.



I'll acknowledge looking at specs is reasonable research when formulating an opinion, but a YouTube video is not. How scientific would it be to watch that YouTube video and then be like "the CS100 is loud". Would it not be best to listen to the advice of aviation experts and professionals in the field? My comment is directed solely at the noise of the aircraft, and not the other aspects which you've mentioned (traffic impacts, view disruptions, etc). I agree with you that introducing jets at the airport could be negative in a number of ways, but when it comes to aircraft noise, I'd prefer to base my argument on solid numbers and facts.

On this we agree. There is a lot of misinformation on both sides of the aisles. That I don't argue about. And yes listening to expert non biased or coerced facts and opinion is best in this instance. I await the official and accredited numbers from Transport Canada, and from the City records before I make my judgement on the noise volume impact.

Just as a personal opinion though, and I'm sure its not a universal one, I find the typical jet whine sound more disruptive than the typical turboprop sound. So from a merely personally biased standpoint if volumes were the same I would still find the jet sound more disruptive than the turboprop. But that's just me :p
 
Respectfully, the impact is anything but marginal. Runway extension will likely require jet blast barriers which will put up 36 foot walls aronud some of the tail end section of the runway blocking off island views. The whine or rev or swoosh noise of the jets coming in and out is also another major point of contention IMO. Planes will be significantly larger too.

CSeries Wingspan: 115 ft. Length: 114 ft. Empty weight: 73400 lbs max seating: 125 pax
737 Wingspan: 117 ft. Length: 102 ft (-600 series). Empty weight: 80031 lbs (-600 series). max seating: 130 pax
Q400 Wingspan: 94 ft. Length: 107 ft (400 series). Empty weight: 37886 lbs. max seating: 78 pax

They all seem to be fairly similar in size, at least to my eyes. What gives you the impression that they are significantly larger.
 
CSeries Wingspan: 115 ft. Length: 114 ft. Empty weight: 73400 lbs max seating: 125 pax
737 Wingspan: 117 ft. Length: 102 ft (-600 series). Empty weight: 80031 lbs (-600 series). max seating: 130 pax
Q400 Wingspan: 94 ft. Length: 107 ft (400 series). Empty weight: 37886 lbs. max seating: 78 pax

They all seem to be fairly similar in size, at least to my eyes. What gives you the impression that they are significantly larger.

Weight.
 
"In any case, Bombardier has guaranteed Porter that the plane will meet the limits. Consultants also conclude that the new jets – part of a quieter, cleaner new generation of aviation technology – will meet air-pollution standards."

This is the main argument of Porter. It is not true.

Bombardier C series uses PW1000C engine, which is a very successful geared turbofan engine (jet). As claimed by Porter, it is cleaner and quieter - BUT (here is the catch) than comparable other turbofan engines (jets). It is not cleaner and quieter than Q400.

All emissions of CS100 is actually higher than Q400.

CS100 claims it achieves 56% to the margin of CAEP6 in NOx emission, which is an excellent value, but still cannot beat a turboprop engine. Same story with other emissions.

Also note that, those emission values are given as grams of pollutant per KN thrust (g/KN). Just looking at the weight of the planes (29,000 kgs vs 58,000 kgs) you can clearly see that CS100 would produce more emission than Q400.

Technical note: I used weight to compare, as Q400 has power producing engines (not thrust) and CS100 has thrust producing engines (not power). It is not simple to convert one into other. As per catalog values, NOx emisson of Q400 is 21.2 g/KN and CS100 is approximately 28 g/KN. Weight is the key factor for power/thrust you would need to take-off, so it is not unrealistic to make a simple estimate that CS100 would produce more emission than Q400.

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You may have to put your sarcasm detector into the shop for some work. ;)

Wasn't sure whether or not you were being sarcastic ;). My bad.

On this we agree. There is a lot of misinformation on both sides of the aisles. That I don't argue about. And yes listening to expert non biased or coerced facts and opinion is best in this instance. I await the official and accredited numbers from Transport Canada, and from the City records before I make my judgement on the noise volume impact.

Just as a personal opinion though, and I'm sure its not a universal one, I find the typical jet whine sound more disruptive than the typical turboprop sound. So from a merely personally biased standpoint if volumes were the same I would still find the jet sound more disruptive than the turboprop. But that's just me :p

I too will wait for the Transport Canada numbers, and I think we generally agree on this issue. My issue is with people who jump on the "jets are so noisy!!!! *loses mind*" crowd before the official numbers become available and formulate ideological opinions on a topic that is scientific in nature.
 

well of course, jets weigh significantly more, there is a lot more stuffed into them. it is of course a larger plane in terms of seating capacity as well, as it has a much wider body. In terms of visual presence however, it is very similar to a Q400.
 
Wasn't sure whether or not you were being sarcastic ;). My bad.



I too will wait for the Transport Canada numbers, and I think we generally agree on this issue. My issue is with people who jump on the "whisper jets are so quiet!!! *loses mind*"crowd before the official numbers become available and formulate ideological opinions on a topic that is scientific in nature.

Corrected for you :)
 
Corrected for you :)

I take issue with those people too! lol

Until the formal numbers are out from TC, anyone preaching from the pulpit on the issue of aircraft noise (NoJetsTO or Deluce & co.) is preaching an ideological message.

What happened to science-based decision making... :(
 
Vancouver voted #1 proposed new Porter destination
Western Canada's largest city beat out Miami, San Francisco as most popular destination for jet service

TORONTO, March 17, 2014 /CNW/ - Porter Airlines supporters have voted Vancouver the top new destination they want to connect with Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport. Over six days, more than 14,000 people visited www.porterplans.com to vote for their favourite North American destination that Porter has proposed as part of its growth plan. Vancouver beat out runners-up Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

Porter is seeking approval for its proposal to introduce quiet jet aircraft meeting strict noise standards and extend the runway at Billy Bishop Airport in order to serve longer-range destinations in locations such as Western Canada, Florida, California and the Caribbean. Toronto City Council will decide on this request as early as April.
.....http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1323535/vancouver-voted-1-proposed-new-porter-destination

Support for jets at Billy Bishop rising slightly
A Forum Research poll of 1,271 Torontonians finds 46 per cent support jets on the Island airport, while 40 per cent are opposed
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/03/18/support_for_jets_at_billy_bishop_rising_slightly.html
 
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This is a matter of engine and aircraft size. Per passenger numbers on the CS100 are going to be lower than the Q400.

Noise, however, will be on par with the Q400 in absolute terms. Something every aerospace engineer knows: turbofans are always quieter than turboprops for the same thrust level.
 
Details from the city staff report are emerging - per Vanessa Lu at the Toronto Star

Vanessa Lu‏@vlu·7 mins
City staff report on #Porter jet plan calls for annual passenger cap and peak hour restrictions at island airport. #TOpoli

Vanessa Lu‏@vlu·6 mins
Without commitment on caps, city staff report says, "there will be little sense" for consideration of expansion.

Vanessa Lu‏@vlu·2 mins
City staff urge 2.4 m annual passenger cap initially at island airport, 16 takeoffs or landing at peak hours.

Vanessa Lu‏@vlu·1 min
In second phase, city staff calls for 2.7 m annual passengers, no more than 20 takeoffs, landings at peak hours.
 
They can call for those restrictions, but then they have to enforce them. There are currently restrictions on times (6:45 am, I think, and 11 pm), and they're not respected, and there's no repercussions.
 
As for the passenger cap being 2.4million - isn't the current number of passengers higher than that?
 

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