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Bill to make harming foetus illegal passes second reading

it's hard to classify what constitutes a human. if you go by chromosomes, you exclude people with downs. if you go by "inability to take care of ones self" you exclude people on medical support. if you go by fertilized egg, well, probably millions of them flow out from the menstrual every year. wouldn't those statistics have to be tacked on to death records? if you go by the ability to recognize ones self "awareness" there are adults that can't do that so are they not persons?
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That's a good post, Prometheus. The bottom line is there's no easy answer and no clear moment in time when a pregnancy becomes a person. I think the current legal definition of what constitutes personhood is problematic, but I'm not sure there is a better one.
 
heckles said:
In many societies, masturbation is considered mortal sin and against the law. Same concept just taken to a higher level, and absurd level if you ask me.
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When you ejaculate you kill millions of sperm! Only way for someone to reach heaven is to be vegan and to die before reaching puberty, and even so it is not a sure thing.
 
^Even then, every time you eat a piece of fruit you are killing a baby plant. And think of what you are doing when eating seeds?
 
What's going to happen ganjavih asks? Others will eventually make the decisions with respect to what a pregnant woman does with her fetus. And perhaps a woman who aborts her fetus for what ever reason will be held responsible for ending the "life of the fetus" no matter how dependent that fetus is on that woman's body!
Many continue to fail seeing any link between safe abortions and the safety and good health of women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. The right to life group are determined to take control away from women with respect to terminating pregnancy. It's a serious matter where it does not involve the input of those who can never find themselves in a position of carrying an unwanted child. Perhaps in utopia when all men who father children support their development then women who carry unborn children will support their eventual existence but we are lightyears away from that pipe dream and illegal abortions kill women! It's all about the safety of women, support it or not. I for one don't like the idea that this minority government thinks it can pass new laws that don't even make sense.
 
Once you have a law that prevents harm to an unborn foetus then the question becomes how can termination not be seen as harm? It seems obvious to me that if harm of a foetus is illegal you certainly can't terminate it. I would think termination is the ultimate harm and everything else would be less harmful.
 
Lets make war illegal and see if the behaviour stops shall we? Abortion is what some people do, hate it or think of it as criminal, at least like war, make some rules that make the behaviour easier to swallow whole! Oh yes don't forget that even witnessed war-crimes go unpunished so cut the pro-choice groups some slack but be mindful at all times that women do not have the same rights as men in our society!! What really happens and what is written into law are not always the same thing. Watch that Harper government!
 
If the woman wants or wanted to keep the foetus/baby and someone else did harm to the baby before it was born, then that should be against the law, and more than just considered assault upon the mother. If, on the other hand, the woman consents (in writing) that the foetus/baby should be terminated/killed, then all involved should not be held responsible for the life of the foetus/baby.

Abortion really is an ugly mess that in the vast majority of cases could be simply avoided through proper birth control. One of my friends had an abortion in high school, and now has two kids and she told me recently that she actually has three kids, two living, one dead. She still fully supports a woman's right to choose, but reminded me that the emotional consequences for abortions are longterm and real, at least for some. Definitely having an abortion is not the same as having your tonsils out, though for some, perhaps it is that simple.
 
Abortion is a taboo subject even for women to discuss but trust me when I say this as a woman, the procedure is one that offers up a sense of relief once it has been completed and like all other assaults on our bodies, people are emotionally guided through the experience and there is the physical recovery element involved. Prior to our legal abortion laws the procedure did occur and I would go as far as saying that most likely many women knew the risks but took them where I doubt the decision was often made alone, and with it died during the process. For a woman to brave such a thing is revealling about unwanted pregnancies and how they might affect a womans life, in that she will risk her own to rid herself of the fetus......as I said, it's a difficult subject to openly discuss even in todays climate of acceptance to a point......
 
i've heard stories of women in the past (who didn't want the pregnancy) who would do things like drink strange mixtures and do crazy things to induce a miscarriage. those efforts didn't always work and one can only wonder the physiological effects caused on the child who was born later & the mother.
 
Abortion is a taboo subject even for women to discuss but trust me when I say this as a woman, the procedure is one that offers up a sense of relief once it has been completed and like all other assaults on our bodies, people are emotionally guided through the experience and there is the physical recovery element involved.
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Based on current evidence, you cannot make this claim. Some studies have not shown a significant increase in psychological distress following an abortion, but some have. This conflicting data has led the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the UK to issue the following statement (March 14, 2008):

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/abortion.pdf
 
ganjavih said:
Based on current evidence, you cannot make this claim. Some studies have not shown a significant increase in psychological distress following an abortion, but some have. This conflicting data has led the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the UK to issue the following statement (March 14, 2008):

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/abortion.pdf
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Essentially there's a small subset of people who get psychologically distraught, and its really unfortunate, but should a small sample relinquish the rights of everyone?

My mother worked for the local Dept of Health for some 37 years before recently retiring. In the experience of most people in the medical field, women who have psychological issues tend to be those who are predisposed to having problems for a variety of reasons: religiousity, previously existing psychological issues such as bi-polar disorder, close family members who are very against the idea tend to make the situation bad for the women involved.

But its also a small subset, not the entire picture. The women who have problems typically would have problems anyway most of the time. You would be surprised how many women experience depression for having had the child and various factors that happen afterwards. Abuse, neglect, women visiting psychiatrists for help after the fact. Many anti-abortionists forget its many times a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. There is no perfect.
 
I stick to what I say and I hardly think suggesting a sense of relief translates to "significant" psychological distress. I was unable to download the pdf. but royal college of psychiatrists is just one source of information based on scientific collection. I am speaking of my personal knowledge of the women with whom I interact.
 
jade_lee said:
I stick to what I say and I hardly think suggesting a sense of relief translates to "significant" psychological distress. I was unable to download the pdf. but royal college of psychiatrists is just one source of information based on scientific collection. I am speaking of my personal knowledge of the women with whom I interact.
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I must agree with you, most women tend to experience the feeling of relief anecdotally at least.
 
I have seen a number of cases of women being severely affected after an abortion, but like Brandon said, it's usually in women with pre-existing emotional problems. Nevertheless, anectodal evidence is poor evidence and scientific studies are inconclusive thus far.
 
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