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Bathurst Streetcar to Eglinton?

nfitz

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Mississauga would be using a different track gauge.
So? The Eglinton line will meet the Yonge-University line at Eglinton and Eglinton West, despite being different gauges. The vehicles will likely be different colours than each other too ... but how is this relevant?
 

calimehtar

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In the United States, great many of their cities' downtown are empty. Buildings get torn down, not to be replaced with new buildings, but for parking lots. That leads to no parking on the streets, making the streets mini-expressways, but with lanes available for passing the streetcars. In addition, outside of weekday business hours, their downtowns are more barren.

From what I can tell most of the cities adding new streetcar lines are exceptions to the barren downtown rule. True, with the exception of NYC, all the US cities I have visited (I haven't been to Portland or Minneapolis, but I have been to DC and Seattle recently) more car-centric and have less pedestrian traffic downtown, but you wouldn't call downtown DC and Seattle barren, exactly.

And true, they are all cities that are smaller than Toronto, but NYC was at least thinking about adding streetcars in Brooklyn in 2010. I don't see Chicago, Los Angeles or Houston adding streetcars in mixed traffic anytime soon.

Portland's objectives with adding mixed traffic streetcars are clear: they want to encourage high-density development and discourage car use. The city is trying to manage growth within strict city limits and the streetcars are part of that strategy. You might say they are trying to make their downtown more like Toronto's - vibrant, dense, and livable - by adding an important ingredient in our cityscape, the streetcar.

Those urban expressways you are talking about sound more like the kind of places where they would run streetcars in right of ways (see Paris tramlines in the suburbs). By contrast, this photo from Portland looks very much like the arrangement in Toronto (the lines I saw under construction in Seattle were the same):
http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_por-stc-data-01.htm
 

Rainforest

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Portland's objectives with adding mixed traffic streetcars are clear: they want to encourage high-density development and discourage car use. The city is trying to manage growth within strict city limits and the streetcars are part of that strategy. You might say they are trying to make their downtown more like Toronto's - vibrant, dense, and livable - by adding an important ingredient in our cityscape, the streetcar.

Those urban expressways you are talking about sound more like the kind of places where they would run streetcars in right of ways (see Paris tramlines in the suburbs). By contrast, this photo from Portland looks very much like the arrangement in Toronto (the lines I saw under construction in Seattle were the same):
http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_por-stc-data-01.htm

From that link, the Portland line is very short (3 miles, or about 5 km). It is similar to Toronto's Bathurst - Exhibition streetcar.

I can see why the Portland line can work well. Being so short greatly reduces the risk of bunching / uneven headways, as well as reduces the effect of speed on the trip time. A 5-km trip at 15 kph will take 20 min, at 20 kph it will take 15 min; not a big deal.

If Toronto wants something like this on Church St or Parliament or Wellesley, basically within downtown, I have no objections. But on longer routes, it will not work so well.
 

calimehtar

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From that link, the Portland line is very short (3 miles, or about 5 km). It is similar to Toronto's Bathurst - Exhibition streetcar.

I can see why the Portland line can work well. Being so short greatly reduces the risk of bunching / uneven headways, as well as reduces the effect of speed on the trip time. A 5-km trip at 15 kph will take 20 min, at 20 kph it will take 15 min; not a big deal.

If Toronto wants something like this on Church St or Parliament or Wellesley, basically within downtown, I have no objections. But on longer routes, it will not work so well.

Not sure exactly what Portland's plans are, but Minneapolis is planning multiple ~15km lines. I suppose they may put the streetcars in right of ways outside the core, but it's hard to say.

I realize the situation with, for example, Queen St., isn't ideal, but at the same time you can't argue that it doesn't work. Regardless of the flaws, ridership on existing long streetcar lines is very high, and they make an enormous positive impact on the city.

From personal experience riding the Queen streetcar the problem with keeping streetcars running smoothly comes mostly from the dense, busy central areas like Queen and Spadina.

Considering the number of people walking and taking TTC in the core, vs driving, the logical thing would be to reduce the space available to automobiles by 25% or more, for example, by creating pedestrian malls/transit corridors on King or Queen. The idea seems shocking and revolutionary in this city but you will find such things in Melbourne and Portland (sure these are small cities with more spread out population and space to spare) but also Amsterdam (which is a big city, has narrow streets, density, and an extensive surface transit system).
 

nfitz

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The streetcars which supply service to St.Clair must use Bathurst to get on/off St. Clair; but they don't pass through Bathurst Station on the way.

I'm not sure there'd be a lot of utility in changing that
I have wondered if things might/should change once the Eglinton line opens. I'd think a lot of riders that previously got off Bathurst station but started north of Eglinton would be getting off at Forest Hill station. But how many?

It may make sense to stop the 7 at Forest Hill, and then run a separate service south from there. The current plan is to leave the 7 unchanged.

If the tracks went to Eglinton instead of St. Clair, it would be a no-brainer to extend the 511 streetcar service to Forest Hill.

Running a bus service just between Forest Hill and Bathurst seems silly, if they need less vehicles. Maybe you could extend the 511 up to St. Clair West, and do something else between St. Clair and Eglinton. The 33 Forest Hill runs up Spadina, not too far to the east, providing service mostly between St. Clair and Eglinton. To the west there's something similar on the 90 Vaughan, providing service on Vaughan. You could do something similar on Bathurst between St Clair and Eglinton. Or perhaps loop the 33 somehow to do a circle in both directions.
 

Rainforest

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Not sure exactly what Portland's plans are, but Minneapolis is planning multiple ~15km lines. I suppose they may put the streetcars in right of ways outside the core, but it's hard to say.

I realize the situation with, for example, Queen St., isn't ideal, but at the same time you can't argue that it doesn't work. Regardless of the flaws, ridership on existing long streetcar lines is very high, and they make an enormous positive impact on the city.

From personal experience riding the Queen streetcar the problem with keeping streetcars running smoothly comes mostly from the dense, busy central areas like Queen and Spadina.

Considering the number of people walking and taking TTC in the core, vs driving, the logical thing would be to reduce the space available to automobiles by 25% or more, for example, by creating pedestrian malls/transit corridors on King or Queen. The idea seems shocking and revolutionary in this city but you will find such things in Melbourne and Portland (sure these are small cities with more spread out population and space to spare) but also Amsterdam (which is a big city, has narrow streets, density, and an extensive surface transit system).

Amsterdam's municipal population is < 1 million, and it has a very decent metro system for its size, in addition to the surface streetcar routes. Plus, the commuter rail plays a lot greater role over there, serving both the Amsterdam's suburbs ans the greater urban agglomeration including Utrecht, The Hague etc.

Queen streetcar in Toronto .. it is iconic but it doesn't actually work very well. People living at its extremities often complain that they have to endure long waits and then long rides. Maybe it works OK for riders who use the downtown portion only. Although when I worked in downtown very close to Queen, I only boarded the Queen streetcar if it was already in sight. Otherwise I either walked to the subway or walked all the way to my destination; usually that was faster.

From my (perhaps slightly obsolete, up to a few years ago) experience with Toronto streetcars: Spadina, St Clair, and King worked well. The former two due to having the ROW, and King, probably due to the high frequency and having a relatively short route. Harbourfront, College, and Bathurst were usually OK. Queen and Dundas were the two least dependable, and I never waited for them if I had another option.
 

Rainforest

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I have wondered if things might/should change once the Eglinton line opens. I'd think a lot of riders that previously got off Bathurst station but started north of Eglinton would be getting off at Forest Hill station. But how many?

It may make sense to stop the 7 at Forest Hill, and then run a separate service south from there. The current plan is to leave the 7 unchanged.

If the tracks went to Eglinton instead of St. Clair, it would be a no-brainer to extend the 511 streetcar service to Forest Hill.

Running a bus service just between Forest Hill and Bathurst seems silly, if they need less vehicles. Maybe you could extend the 511 up to St. Clair West, and do something else between St. Clair and Eglinton. The 33 Forest Hill runs up Spadina, not too far to the east, providing service mostly between St. Clair and Eglinton. To the west there's something similar on the 90 Vaughan, providing service on Vaughan. You could do something similar on Bathurst between St Clair and Eglinton. Or perhaps loop the 33 somehow to do a circle in both directions.

That's an interesting option. Although, finding space for both the bus loop and the streetcar terminus at Bathurst & Eglinton will be challenging, the intersection is very tight.
 

WislaHD

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That's an interesting option. Although, finding space for both the bus loop and the streetcar terminus at Bathurst & Eglinton will be challenging, the intersection is very tight.
Perhaps a loop can be made further north nearer to Roselawn, or at the church at Bathurst and St Clements.

There would be some small duplication of service with the Bathurst North bus, but the area near Bathurst and Roselawn is fairly dense with apartment buildings anyway. A streetcar loop + stop there could mean those residents don't need to take the bus for one stop before transferring to streetcar to continue southbound.
 

W. K. Lis

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Perhaps a loop can be made further north nearer to Roselawn, or at the church at Bathurst and St Clements.

There would be some small duplication of service with the Bathurst North bus, but the area near Bathurst and Roselawn is fairly dense with apartment buildings anyway. A streetcar loop + stop there could mean those residents don't need to take the bus for one stop before transferring to streetcar to continue southbound.

They're demolishing the building at the southwest corner of Bathurst & Eglinton for a development. They could have built a loop using the first couple of floors (think McCaul loop).


From link.


From link.
 

Rainforest

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For the streetcar extension to work, something has to be done about the Bathurst on-street parking between St Clair and Bloor.

Bathurst moves OK from Eglinton to St Clair, a mixed traffic streetcar might work there. But south of St Clair, curb lanes are often filled with parked cars, pushing all traffic intio the central lanes (one lane in each direction). The Bathurst bus can spend 15-20 minutes crawling those 2 km between St Clair and Bloor. If the same happens to the streetcar, not only will it inconvenience the riders, but will mess up the service south of Bloor.

I doubt that simply prohibiting the street parking is an option in this case; the residents might have no other parking space. Old part of the city, houses have no driveways or garages.
 

drum118

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They're demolishing the building at the southwest corner of Bathurst & Eglinton for a development. They could have built a loop using the first couple of floors (think McCaul loop).


From link.


From link.
Any new streetcar loop needs to be built to the real turning radius of the new fleet, not the current network. Duel end cars would be a lot better using stub ends.

On street parking is a real issue for most streetcar routes and this proposed extension is no exception. The other issue, can the current bridge support streetcars or will it have to be rebuilt at great disruption???

You have a far better change having tracks north of Eglinton than south.
 

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