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Bathurst Streetcar to Eglinton?

mrxbombastic

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Honestly this idea is a non-starter imho. Bathurst is only 4 lanes so no ROW and the capital cost is ridiculous to think about for a short spur to a place with already established travel patterns of getting downtown. Streetcars couldn't loop at eglinton and the new artic buses provide more flexibility in their operations here. Bringing it up to St Clair is something to think about but anything else is not going to happen any time soon.

The problem with bringing it up to St Clair is the operations inside and entering/leaving St Clair west station.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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1) TTC wants only ROW built these days and Bathurst too narrow for it. Running in mix traffic will have an impact on service compare to 7.
2) Operation issue for 512 with 511 going to St Clair unless you not use St Clair W station to loop. It force a transfer as well having some impact on 512 service looping west by Vaughan and not going east.
3) Having the 7 split at St Clair becomes a rider and transfer issue. Even have the 7 operating the current way will be a waste of resources and money having duel service. The streetcar will still have to loop at Bloor.
4) Where do you plan to loop the line without tearing buildings down at Eglinton?
5) If 511 went to Eglinton, the 7 would have to be terminated there and another transfer for riders.
6) How far north of Eglinton do you go before moving to buses?
7) Not have duel ends causes more issues for new lines let alone the current line and an example for a line as proposed.
So if you you could expand the streetcar network? Where to?
 

drum118

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So if you you could expand the streetcar network? Where to?

My recommendation to TTC in June 2005 call for 150km of new tracks and TTC having a fleet of 600-700 LRV's and eyes roll. This didn't allow for lines crossing into the 905.

Getting 204 plus another 60 along with about 180 for Metrolinx and we haven't add cars for other lines that haven't been plan under the original Transit City plan.

My plan was a lot bigger than the first transit city plan or other lines that got added on later and scrap.

I guess those rolling eyes in 2005 would be saying something different today.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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My recommendation to TTC in June 2005 call for 150km of new tracks and TTC having a fleet of 600-700 LRV's and eyes roll. This didn't allow for lines crossing into the 905.

Getting 204 plus another 60 along with about 180 for Metrolinx and we haven't add cars for other lines that haven't been plan under the original Transit City plan.

My plan was a lot bigger than the first transit city plan or other lines that got added on later and scrap.

I guess those rolling eyes in 2005 would be saying something different today.

Wow. Can you PM a picture to me?
 

innsertnamehere

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My recommendation to TTC in June 2005 call for 150km of new tracks and TTC having a fleet of 600-700 LRV's and eyes roll. This didn't allow for lines crossing into the 905.

Getting 204 plus another 60 along with about 180 for Metrolinx and we haven't add cars for other lines that haven't been plan under the original Transit City plan.

My plan was a lot bigger than the first transit city plan or other lines that got added on later and scrap.

I guess those rolling eyes in 2005 would be saying something different today.

$$$$$$
 

calimehtar

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Some progressive US cities are building out new streetcar networks complete with streetcars running in mixed traffic saying that it is good for business and helps to calm traffic, in addition to simply being the preferred option for local public transit.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine Toronto reversing course on their current streetcar strategy in future years (maybe decades). Bathurst wouldn't be my first pick because the parts of the street that don't already have streetcars are already pretty residential, and the kind of residential that lends itself more to car drivers - large, expensive, single-occapancy, etc., until you get up north of Eglinton.

I can suggest a few places that would be better:

- Dufferin (extremely busy bus line, no room for a ROW)
- The eastern end of Kingston Rd. (that entire part of town is poorly served by transit, plus Kingston has lots of commercial that would benefit from transit riders and traffic calming)
- Rogers Rd. (used to have a streetcar line, and still has a pretty vibrant neighbourhood feeling on the streets)
- The Queensway (theoretically the Queensway could support and ROW)

Of course there should also be a streetcar running all the way to Ontario Place and connecting to Queen at Roncesvalles, and also a Queen's Quay East streetcar.
 

Palma

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DSC is right. Bigger priorities for other things. And the subway from Eglinton West to Spadina basically duplicates the route already.

It may duplicate the route but you still have the bus running down Bathurst which duplicates Spadina. And if you can have no cars during rush hours in the AM and PM along Eglinton in the bus lane why can the same thing not be done on Bathurst if a streetcar was extended from Bloor to St, Clair or Eginton. I just don;t understand it If people can accept during rush hiors no cars on those lanes what is the difference if it was on a streetcar lane?
 

W. K. Lis

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Some progressive US cities are building out new streetcar networks complete with streetcars running in mixed traffic saying that it is good for business and helps to calm traffic, in addition to simply being the preferred option for local public transit.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine Toronto reversing course on their current streetcar strategy in future years (maybe decades). Bathurst wouldn't be my first pick because the parts of the street that don't already have streetcars are already pretty residential, and the kind of residential that lends itself more to car drivers - large, expensive, single-occapancy, etc., until you get up north of Eglinton.

I can suggest a few places that would be better:

- Dufferin (extremely busy bus line, no room for a ROW)
- The eastern end of Kingston Rd. (that entire part of town is poorly served by transit, plus Kingston has lots of commercial that would benefit from transit riders and traffic calming)
- Rogers Rd. (used to have a streetcar line, and still has a pretty vibrant neighbourhood feeling on the streets)
- The Queensway (theoretically the Queensway could support and ROW)

Of course there should also be a streetcar running all the way to Ontario Place and connecting to Queen at Roncesvalles, and also a Queen's Quay East streetcar.

I'm thinking that replacing the 40 Junction bus (Dundas Street West going north of Bloor to Runnymede) with a streetcar and then connecting it with a 512 St. Clair extension to Scarlett Road would be beneficial.
 

Rainforest

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Some progressive US cities are building out new streetcar networks complete with streetcars running in mixed traffic saying that it is good for business and helps to calm traffic, in addition to simply being the preferred option for local public transit.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine Toronto reversing course on their current streetcar strategy in future years (maybe decades). Bathurst wouldn't be my first pick because the parts of the street that don't already have streetcars are already pretty residential, and the kind of residential that lends itself more to car drivers - large, expensive, single-occapancy, etc., until you get up north of Eglinton.

I can suggest a few places that would be better:

- Dufferin (extremely busy bus line, no room for a ROW)
- The eastern end of Kingston Rd. (that entire part of town is poorly served by transit, plus Kingston has lots of commercial that would benefit from transit riders and traffic calming)
- Rogers Rd. (used to have a streetcar line, and still has a pretty vibrant neighbourhood feeling on the streets)
- The Queensway (theoretically the Queensway could support and ROW)

Of course there should also be a streetcar running all the way to Ontario Place and connecting to Queen at Roncesvalles, and also a Queen's Quay East streetcar.

On the majority of Toronto's streets, mixed-traffic streetcars will be inevitably messed up by traffic congestion. I don't think it makes sense to build such lines just to earn the "progressive" sticker, if they do not result in actual improvement of the service quality.

Those US cities may be in a different situation. Perhaps those cities are mid-size, 300 to 700 thousand of people, and do not suffer from congestion as much as Toronto; then, mixed-traffic streetcars can work well. Perhaps their streetcars replace bus routes with a very low frequency. If a bus running every 30 min is replaced with a streetcar every 10 or every 5 min, of course it is good for business. But the primary cause will be better frequency rather than the change of vehicle type.

The effect may be much smaller on streets that already have frequent bus service. Toronto has 3 areas that are close to streetcar lines, far from subways, and are seeing / have recently seen massive growth: Spadina, Waterfront, West Toronto. Of those, Spadina and Waterfront are served by streetcars in a R.O.W. West Toronto may be in part growing due to streetcars, but notably while King and Queen have mixed-traffic streetcars, Liberty Street does not have any. On the other hand, Dundas and College have streetcars but do not see any particular growth; same goes for the whole streetcar network east of Yonge.

Notably, outer parts of Toronto have good 200 km of wide streets that can host a R.O.W. light rail line plus 4 lanes of traffic. The cost of building per km is similar for R.O.W. light rail and for mixed-traffic streetcar, but the benefit of the R.O.W. light rail is much greater. Therefore, the resources should be spent on R.O.W. light rail first.

Route by route:

- Dufferin is very congested, mixed-traffic streetcars there will be as unreliable as on Queen. Additional problem is the hills south of Eglinton.

- Kingston Road already has plans for LRT north of Eglinton, and for BRT between Danforth Rd and Eglinton. Both of them probably make sense and none of them is going to be in mixed-traffic.

- I am not familiar with Rogers Rd. Maybe streetcars can work there, being a branch of St Clair.

- Queensway streetcar (whether mixed-traffic or in R.O.W.) will have same problem as Lakeshore West: poor connection to downtown via a congested mixed-traffic section of Queen or King. If the WW West LRT connection is built, it will change the game; potentially could serve both Lakeshore and Queensway branches.

- Queen's Quay East, if built, will be in a R.O.W. And yes, this one makes a lot of sense and can be built for a modest amount of money.
 
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Rainforest

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It may duplicate the route but you still have the bus running down Bathurst which duplicates Spadina. And if you can have no cars during rush hours in the AM and PM along Eglinton in the bus lane why can the same thing not be done on Bathurst if a streetcar was extended from Bloor to St, Clair or Eginton. I just don;t understand it If people can accept during rush hiors no cars on those lanes what is the difference if it was on a streetcar lane?

In theory, Eglinton has those bus-only lanes; not in all locations, and in some places a dedicated lane exists for one direction only. In reality, the street is clogged anyway and the buses come in packs followed by long gaps.

On King, "dedicated" streetcar lanes somewhat help west of Bathurst, but either do not exist or are not obeyed through downtown. As a result, King streetcar runs on uneven headways, and if the service is generally usable, it is due to the very high scheduled frequency rather than due to those half-heart "dedicated" lanes.
 
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W. K. Lis

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In the United States, great many of their cities' downtown are empty. Buildings get torn down, not to be replaced with new buildings, but for parking lots. That leads to no parking on the streets, making the streets mini-expressways, but with lanes available for passing the streetcars. In addition, outside of weekday business hours, their downtowns are more barren.
 

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