Barrie Collingwood Railway (BCRY)

[micheal_can]

Well, there isn't a GO bus to Orillia, and Greyhound's services have been in freefall for years. I personally don't agree with extending GO rail to Orillia, but we should extend the Barrie-Orillia LINX route from Georgian College to Allandale Waterfront or the bus terminal instead of just leaving Orillia in the cold because of low northbound demand.

Maybe the first thing to be implemented is a GO bus to Orillia. Maybe it could be a route that connects to Barrie and Whitby as well as Casino Rama.

 

[RedMelon]

Honesty BCRY is a waste, they are better of having a truck plant in utopia that unloads the CP Rail cars at the diamond onto trucks cause its cheaper to use a taxpayer provide highway rather then paying for a rail line and expensive upgrades each year. It just doesn't make sense, if its only carrying 2 trains on average a day just match it up with 3 to four trucks a day. Plus a truck is faster then a 10 mph rail line.

Then they should preserve the line for future use, Also if Go does go to Collingwood BCRY should try to get operating rights for weekdays that way they can go to Collingwood again. (With a faster speed limit since Metrolinx would have to install new tracks.) also it may attract new customers due to the rail upgrades

Metrolinx will own the line
BCRY will pay for running rights on weekdays
Barrie will be less responsible for the rail which is good!
Works put pretty well!
Maybe it could attract Cando to stay, but getting a new operator isn't hard.

 

[RedMelon]

Here is my plan Red boxes are go stations for weekend service Only!! And BCRY for only weekdays since go wouldnt use it

 

[micheal_can]

Honesty BCRY is a waste, they are better of having a truck plant in utopia that unloads the CP Rail cars at the diamond onto trucks cause its cheaper to use a taxpayer provide highway rather then paying for a rail line and expensive upgrades each year. It just doesn't make sense, if its only carrying 2 trains on average a day just match it up with 3 to four trucks a day. Plus a truck is faster then a 10 mph rail line.

Then they should preserve the line for future use, Also if Go does go to Collingwood BCRY should try to get operating rights for weekdays that way they can go to Collingwood again. (With a faster speed limit since Metrolinx would have to install new tracks.) also it may attract new customers due to the rail upgrades

Metrolinx will own the line
BCRY will pay for running rights on weekdays
Barrie will be less responsible for the rail which is good!
Works put pretty well!
Maybe it could attract Cando to stay, but getting a new operator isn't hard.

You know very little about moving freight if you think trucking is better.Take a standard boxcar, or tank car. The amount those hold is about 2-3x a standard truck. Now, how many cars are moved on a daily/weekly basis?

There is no reason freight cannot be mixed in, but it can get messy as the line becomes more popular.

Here is my plan Red boxes are go stations for weekend service Only!! And BCRY for only weekdays since go wouldnt use itView attachment 277781

With Covid having many buisness professionals moving away from the big cities, a weekday service from these places would make some sense. Even if it is only 2-3 runs during peak, there is a good chance it can be utilized. After the pandemic, people likely will still work from home. They may need to go to an office once in a while, so better transit is still needed,.

 

[crs1026]

I would then add, that we need to contemplate intermediate and/or non-GTA commuting points.

I don't foresee, nor do I desire, people routinely commuting from Wasaga/Collingwood to the GTA.

But I certainly can envision a commute to Barrie.

Providing one uses the correct rolling stock for such a trip, a 3-car emu/dmu or the like.............I think there may be a business case to be had there.

I'm not sure it would break-even, but we don't demand that of GO, of Public Transit or of Highways, so I don't think that's the fair ask.

The fair ask is a per-rider subsidy that isn't excessive when compared with its peer-group.

We very much need a "Places to Grow Part 2" strategy which deals with the increasingly populated areas on the other side of the greenbelt from the GTA. The risk to loss of farmland from sprawl within and around these areas is as worrisome as the sprawl that has emerged within the GTA.

I agree that there needs to be an overall transportation plan for these areas. Densification (at least from rural to semi-urban) is happening, and, as you suggest, commuter zones may emerge within these areas. It would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison of a BCRY upgrade against the likely enlargement of roads in the Barrie-Collingwood area over the next 10-20 years. A BCRY upgrade might not look that unaffordable.

The transportation market for vacation/liesure use is interesting. We are seeing a taste of it with COVID. There is a huge market for daytripping from Toronto, and all of Barrie, Orillia, Collingwood, Wasaga, and such are perfect candidates. (Have actually done some of this with my family recently, very enjoyable). I am less optimistic that the cottage country can support weekend or liesure train use.... the folks I know who have cottages up there tend to travel back and forth with a full load of gear in their SUV's, more than one could take with them on a train. Nevertheless, I can see many travel markets emerging, almost going back to the early 1900's when a variety of boat and radial/rail excursion routes existed out of Toronto. Again, not all of these will be Union Station based....getting people from say Oakville to Wasaga Beach may be a whole market segment, and a connection at Union will have trouble competing.

Getting back to BCRY specifically, the biggest problem for freight shippers on this route is the utter indifference of CP to customers on this line. CP runs only one manifest train a day each way north of Alliston. It's a monster land barge, sometimes with remote DPU units. Stopping this train to lift or set off at Utopia is troublesome: the length of the train discourages intermediate switching moves as crossings are blocked and the crew effort is significant. So it is common for this train to be directed to skip the Utopia stop, and proceed onwards, taking cars bound for BCRY with them. Shippers and CP and BCRY operating folks have endless stories of BCRY freight going into a loop between Toronto and Sudbury, because the PSR system is geared towards keeping trains moving. I am not optimistic that shippers will stick with rail on this route.

- Paul

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

We very much need a "Places to Grow Part 2" strategy which deals with the increasingly populated areas on the other side of the greenbelt from the GTA. The risk to loss of farmland from sprawl within and around these areas is as worrisome as the sprawl that has emerged within the GTA.

I agree that there needs to be an overall transportation plan for these areas. Densification (at least from rural to semi-urban) is happening, and, as you suggest, commuter zones may emerge within these areas. It would be interesting to see a head-to-head comparison of a BCRY upgrade against the likely enlargement of roads in the Barrie-Collingwood area over the next 10-20 years. A BCRY upgrade might not look that unaffordable.

The transportation market for vacation/liesure use is interesting. We are seeing a taste of it with COVID. There is a huge market for daytripping from Toronto, and all of Barrie, Orillia, Collingwood, Wasaga, and such are perfect candidates. (Have actually done some of this with my family recently, very enjoyable). I am less optimistic that the cottage country can support weekend or liesure use.... the folks I know who have cottages up there tend to travel back and forth with a full load of gear in their SUV's, more than one could take with them on a train. Nevertheless, I can see many travel markets emerging, almost going back to the early 1900's when a variety of boat and radial/rail excursion routes existed out of Toronto. Again, not all of these will be Union Station based....getting people from say Oakville to Wasaga Beach may be a whole market segment, and a connection at Union will have trouble competing.

Getting back to BCRY specifically, the biggest problem for freight shippers on this route is the utter indifference of CP to customers on this line. CP runs only one manifest train a day each way north of Alliston. It's a monster land barge, sometimes with remote DPU units. Stopping this train to lift or set off at Utopia is troublesome, and the length of the train discourages intermediate switching moves as crossings are blocked and the crew effort is significant. So it is common for this train to be directed to skip the Utopia stop, and proceed onwards, taking cars bound for BCRY with them. Shippers and CP and BCRY operating folks have endless stories of BCRY freight going into a loop between Toronto and Sudbury, because the PSR system is geared towards keeping trains moving. I am not optimistic that shippers will stick with rail on this route.

- Paul

- Paul

This is what I'd like to see; everything you see in blue/green protected.

The dark green is what the province was considering protecting in 2018; and the blue is what was proposed by a coalition of environmental, local, first nations and agricultural groups.

That comes from here: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/greenbelt/pages/7322/attachments/original/1516918875/Greenbelt_Bluebelt_VS_Prov_FINAL_03_(1).pdf?1516918875

As an added note, the province never did protect the vast majority of the studied area.

It made a few very small expansions, largely confined to the Hamilton/Niagara area; and extracted at least that much from the protected area in various locations.

 

[lenaitch]

What would you see as the difference between this proposed service to Collingwood and the current service to Niagara Falls??? You say "High end resort operators" as if there are none of those located in Niagara falls.

I suspect you haven't been to Collingwood/Blue Mountain recently if at all. It is hardly a playground for the wealthy as you attempt to frame it as. If anything it is average Ontarians enjoying their province.

I can see your argument about Wasaga and the cottage owners, but even still there are a number of occasional users who might prefer to take mass transit rather than drive.

The first difference is there is already rail to NF. I'll leave to others to cost out re-laying a line and how that would fit into public expenditures.

I go to or through Collingwood/Blue Mountain several times a year. I live southern Georgian Bay every day. It's a nice town. The use of the term "high end resort operators" does not necessarily imply that the patrons are wealthy, but the cost enjoying those sports are not insignificant (passes, lift tickets, etc.) and depend on disposable income. Contrast that with going to NF where, if the goal is to wander and take in the falls, it is essentially free. Having said that, if the excursion is to involve accommodations, I have no idea how the two communities compare in terms of costs. There may also be the issue of schlepping ski and snowboard gear onto a train, which might involve reconfiguration.

All of this has to be put into the context of available public funds. There is a struggle to fund Toronto/GTA needs for basic commuting. Perhaps if/when that is solved these types of projects could be seen are more appropriate.

I actually take a bit of a different view than others on the future of Wasaga Beach. A cursory view of the current weekend demographics along Beach 1 and 2 suggests that day trippers and weekend visitors largely skew to younger singles and families as well as what appear to me as first generation families. Not a lot of disposable income, eat a a burger or pizza joint, stay at a relatively inexpensive strip motel or cabin; maybe a bbq. The town seems to want to redevelop that area in partnership with resort owners and other corporate entities to 'improve the experience'. This will undoubtedly move the main beach area upscale, sort of like a 'Blue Mountain on sand'. The ultimate experience may be more value-added, but I don't see it continuing as a beach for the masses if the plans play out.

Perhaps I look at things through a short term lens, as opposed to Northern Light and others. As you get older, your perspective tends to shorten.

 

[Northern Light]

Perhaps I look at things through a short term lens, as opposed to Northern Light and others. As you get older, your perspective tends to shorten.

That maybe an excuse when you finally get old............but it hasn't happened yet; no jumping the gun! LOL

 

[lenaitch]

Getting back to BCRY specifically, the biggest problem for freight shippers on this route is the utter indifference of CP to customers on this line. CP runs only one manifest train a day each way north of Alliston. It's a monster land barge, sometimes with remote DPU units. Stopping this train to lift or set off at Utopia is troublesome: the length of the train discourages intermediate switching moves as crossings are blocked and the crew effort is significant. So it is common for this train to be directed to skip the Utopia stop, and proceed onwards, taking cars bound for BCRY with them. Shippers and CP and BCRY operating folks have endless stories of BCRY freight going into a loop between Toronto and Sudbury, because the PSR system is geared towards keeping trains moving. I am not optimistic that shippers will stick with rail on this route.
- Paul

Knowing nothing about freight rail operations, one would think it would make more sense to run a switcher job once or twice a week, perhaps as an extension to the 'Honda turn' to Spence, rather than stopping, breaking up and restarting a manifest freight. Or give up on CP entirely and negotiate overnight running rights with Metrolinx to serve the Barrie customers.

 

[lenaitch]

[QUOTE="lenaitch, post: 1609121, member: 71434"
Perhaps I look at things through a short term lens, as opposed to Northern Light and others. As you get older, your perspective tends to shorten.

That maybe an excuse when you finally get old............but it hasn't happened yet; no jumping the gun! LOL
[/QUOTE]

I was in high school when the Leafs last won the Stanley Cup. What does that tell you!

 

[Northern Light]

I was in high school when the Leafs last won the Stanley Cup. What does that tell you!

One of 2 things...........either you're going to live to a very, very old age; or the Leafs won a Cup and everyone missed it.

 

[RedMelon]

Maybe BCRY can work out a deal with GO to run midnight trains down the newmarket sub if these are still interested in train service

 

[RedMelon]

There are a lot of industries along the line in Bradford

 

[crs1026]

I actually take a bit of a different view than others on the future of Wasaga Beach. A cursory view of the current weekend demographics along Beach 1 and 2 suggests that day trippers and weekend visitors largely skew to younger singles and families as well as what appear to me as first generation families. Not a lot of disposable income, eat a a burger or pizza joint, stay at a relatively inexpensive strip motel or cabin; maybe a bbq. The town seems to want to redevelop that area in partnership with resort owners and other corporate entities to 'improve the experience'. This will undoubtedly move the main beach area upscale, sort of like a 'Blue Mountain on sand'. The ultimate experience may be more value-added, but I don't see it continuing as a beach for the masses if the plans play out.

Perhaps I look at things through a short term lens, as opposed to Northern Light and others. As you get older, your perspective tends to shorten.

I get that Collingwood/Wasaga is going (has gone?) upscale, but I would compare the future to Niagara on the Lake rather than sandy old shcool Wasaga. On a summer weekend there's more congestion on the bike trails connecting the wineries in Virgil than they can handle. I can easily see a bike-hauling train to Georgian Bay leading to a similar sort of excursioning as the Niagara trains, with the resorts welcoming cyclists for a beer or meal. The Beach may be a cycling destination, but the traditional lie-on-a-blanket-and-bake attraction may not be the source of entertainment. It's only 5 kms from the tracks at Stayner to the water, and nice level road for cycling or walking.

Especially since COVID has made everyone stir crazy, all the conservation areas north of the GTA are plugged. The cleverer small towns are positioning themselves as destinations. I see an upside potential in that.

It's inevitable that the beer-and-beach crowd will be asked to go elsewhere, especially as land values appreciate and the socioeconomic level of local residents rises. I too may be showing my age, but something has shifted in the younger party demographic that is tending to make that population increasingly annoying and unwelcome. (Call me old, but I certainly got my share of sunburns at Wasaga and Sauble and Grand Bend back in the day.... were we just as annoying?) Aleady there are tensions between residents and daytrippers up that way.... it will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

- Paul

 

[ShonTron]

Really, extending trains on poorly maintained or abandoned track is quite ridiculous. But there's an opportunity - especially if Barrie moves the bus terminal to Allandale - for a nice tourism entrepot, with buses taking on passengers headed to Midland/Penetang (Martyrs' Shrine/Ste Marie, Discovery Harbour/beaches), Wasaga, Collingwood/Thornbury, Orillia, and the casino. At Allandale itself, it might be smart for Barrie to zone for some hotel and event space - there's a pretty good network of waterfront parks right there.

I would love to see a return of some of the pre-war summer resort culture in Ontario, when cityfolk would board trains, boats, and coach buses to places like Wasaga, Port Dalhousie, Gravenhurst (and onto boats plying the Muskoka Lakes), either to vacation homes, to resort hotels, or just day trips. Allandale could be that new gateway. I could really see this as I think the era of cheap airfares has peaked.