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Baby, we got a bubble!?

TREB July Full Month sales

6,564 sales at a $420k average
http://www.torontorealestateboard.co...watch_0710.pdf
http://www.torontorealestateboard.co...pdf/mw1007.pdf

Lowest July full month sales since 2004 have been 7,082 in 2006, and have averaged at 8200 for 2004-2009. So at 6,600, sales are 20% below the 5 year average.
http://guava.ca/

Since Oct of 2009, here are the yoy changes by month from 2 years prior (I go 2 years back to avoid the distortion from the dramatic Oct 2008 drop)

+7% Oct 2009
+6% Nov 2009
+4% Dec 2009
+9% Jan 2010
+13% Feb 2010
+14% Mar 2010
+10% April 2010
+12% May 2010
+10% Jun 2010
+13% July 2010

As can be seen, despite the lower demand in July, prices and price changes are comparable to earlier in the year. The question will be whether July 2010 was a low sales anomaly, or whether the lower demand is the new normal ( in which case price drops will follow.) Likely the jury on this will remain out until we start to see late fall figures.

Dave, you are absolutely correct in the order of what will happen. First, sales stall. Vendors get sticky with their price and don't lower. Finally, when it starts to drop because people have held as long as they can, prices drop. If your other post is correct, you are expecting 25-30% drop over 5 years. Expect it to be a small drop initially and if no recover, expect the decline rate to pick up.

The only way there will be new increasing demand is if interest rates fall even further. And that will only be happening because things are not going well. So either way, demand should fall if people pause and reflect. As well, home ownership is at all time highs with I believe close to 70% of the population owning a home (though do not quote me on the figure). My point is that all the previous aspirers of home ownership who could not get in before have had the opportunity now by virtue of years of low mortgage rates and this demand source must be slowing.
 
The only way there will be new increasing demand is if interest rates fall even further. And that will only be happening because things are not going well. So either way, demand should fall if people pause and reflect. As well, home ownership is at all time highs with I believe close to 70% of the population owning a home (though do not quote me on the figure). My point is that all the previous aspirers of home ownership who could not get in before have had the opportunity now by virtue of years of low mortgage rates and this demand source must be slowing.

Agreed. Also, I think the new CMHC rules have substantially reduced the $ amount of mortgage eligibility within the market. So even if the number of buyers was still the same (unlikely), their avg purchasing power will be less.

The only thing which gives me pause is that the Canadian gov't (and others) have shown an unprecedented willingness in the past two years to bail out consumers. I think the sun is setting on this market intervention, but one never knows what politicians will do to buy some votes.
 
Agreed. Also, I think the new CMHC rules have substantially reduced the $ amount of mortgage eligibility within the market. So even if the number of buyers was still the same (unlikely), their avg purchasing power will be less.

The only thing which gives me pause is that the Canadian gov't (and others) have shown an unprecedented willingness in the past two years to bail out consumers. I think the sun is setting on this market intervention, but one never knows what politicians will do to buy some votes.

Again, I agree totally with what you are suggesting here. It is difficult to anticipate political intervention and its effects. Would the Canadian government step in to prevent a US style meltdown. Certainly seeing what happened in the US and Other markets around the world (Spain, Dubai, etc) I would expect them to to tryand prevent a repear of the devastation there. Would it be successful? That is another question altogether.

However, I expect there will not intervention unless there is at least a decline of 15-20% and evidence that there is no floor to the drop which I also do not believe will be the scenario, barring some other major event(s) to the Canadian in particular but also the world's (and especially the US) economies. Of course, if the US does some major manipulation as well, Canada may have to follow suit somewhat to allow it to remain "competitive".

Finally, the more meddling done by governments today simply postpones the day of reckoning and further distorts the fundaments. The best scenario I think we can hope for is that governments are successful, consumer confidence/business confidence remains and picks up, and we have a minor correction and essentially no growth (not even inflation) for the next 5 years in the real estate market. This would actually be a good result since the excess new product would slowly get removed from the system with less new construction and ultimately a rebalance of supply/demand in favour of excess demand again with a restart upwards in prices.

Any scenario I see however does not result in a "steady increase of inflation +" in prices. I realize they are still rising as your data shows but it is clear from the trends from the data you posted that that is changing as we speak since the latter part of both 2008 and 2009 showed price increases (especially latter 2009) and therefore even if sales just continue as they have in 3 months, by end of year it will be apparent to all what a number of posters here have seen occuring for months now.

Then again, I still have not understood how we are higher now than before the start of the "mini adjustment" of Sept 2008 to end March 2009.
 
Last edited:
From the Globe and Mail: Steve Deladurantaye:
The real estate rebound that lifted property values around the world is losing momentum, Bank of Nova Scotia says in a new report.

Housing demand and prices slipped in the second quarter, senior economist Adrienne Warne wrote in the bank's Global Real Estate Trends Report Tuesday. The market was sideswiped by moderating global growth, volatility in financial markets and weak job creation.

“Global real estate markets entered 2010 with a renewed sense of optimism, piggybacking on the broader economic recovery under way,” she wrote. “Housing demand and pricing improved in the first quarter of the year in the majority of the advanced nations we track, benefitting from ultra-low interest rates, improved affordability, and in some cases, government purchase incentives.”

Still, gains were made. Australia and Canada saw double-digit gains in inflation adjusted prices, “mirroring their relatively more favourable employment and lending conditions.”



Sweden and Switzerland posted increases, while in Britain home prices moved back into positive year-over- year territory for the first time in two years. The U.S. and French markets reported marginal declines.

Spain and Ireland saw home prices fall year over year in the quarter, with high inventories and high unemployment hurting the market. Japan, which has been in a 20-year slump, also saw prices slip.

“The recent slowdown has been most dramatic in Canada,” the report states. “Average home prices in Q2 were up just 6.8 per cent year-over-year, compared with 16.6 per cent year-over-year in Q1. Sales, while still at a high level, have trended steadily lower alongside reduced affordability and exhausted pent-up demand.”

“In some of the hardest-hit markets facing ongoing deleveraging by households and governments, the U.S., the U.K., Spain and Ireland included, Scotia Economics continues to anticipate a multi-year period of adjustment,” the report stated. “In higher growth nations such as Canada and Australia, housing activity should prove much more subdued than in recent years.”



Canadian sellers have been asking for more money than new builders, the report added.

Between 2000 and the first half of 2010, the average cost of a new home increased by just over 50 per cent.

“Over the same period, the average price of a resale home more than doubled,” the report said. “Traditionally, the demand and pricing for new homes mirror, but with a lag, trends in the resale market. When resale housing selection is limited, and/or prices are increasing sharply, buyers are more likely to consider a new home purchase.”

The reason? The report pointed to “a shortage of resale listings relative to demand, a boom in renovation activity that has added value to the existing stock of housing, and rising urban land values.”

“The divergence in new and resale home prices is seen in most markets across the country, but to varying degrees,” the report said.

“The biggest gap has opened up in British Columbia, where the lack of developable land in its largest city is a major contributor to its record high home prices. On the other hand, new home prices have largely tracked resale prices in Alberta and Saskatchewan, where a massive influx of population attracted to the region's booming economy, and the inherent lag in adding sufficient new housing stock, fuelled across-the-board appreciation.”

I have highlighted a few points. Main one: trend is to house prices to stop increasing and be flat for the rest of the year. That said, Canada so far has fared very well.
 
From the NY times:

Breaking News AlertThe New York TimesTue, August 10, 2010 -- 2:18 PM ET----- Fed to Buy Government Debt; Says the Recovery Has 'Slowed' Acknowledging that "the pace of recovery in output andemployment has slowed in recent months," the Federal Reserveon Tuesday announced that it would use the proceeds from itshuge mortgage-bond portfolio to buy long-term Treasurysecurities. The action was a small step in dollar terms but the clearestindication yet that officials at the central bank had becomealarmed about new indications that the recovery had stalledand could even, in the view of some Fed officials, turn intodeflation, a spiraling decline in demand, wages and prices. Read More:http://www.nytimes.com

This does not bode well for the US and by extension Canada. This will get into investor psychology going forward.
 
Some inflation would be great but there is still slack demand and those who work it out in their own mind will realize that things are not healthy and therefore hold off on more major investment purchases.
 
Markets crashing today! Maybe we'll see a double bottom after all? It would be healthier.... Actually, the recent drop in sales in T.dot etc seem to indicate a double bottom is on the way.

With the expected price declines on the horizon-- and it could be a severe decline --, time for the vultures to get ready for a kill?
 
With the expected price declines on the horizon-- and it could be a severe decline --, time for the vultures to get ready for a kill?

Where are Condo George and Myfive: We need them to add some zest to this discussion because only the negative guys are posting now.

Markets are totally fickle, going up and down on every bit of news. I believe there are problems but it is almost to the point of being a game with people satisfying their gambling addiction trying to figure out how to make money daily.

Interestingly, there is a launch of a new project in Oakville happening shortly. I understand prices will be $500 to $650 range. I will watch and report how this goes when it occurs in the next few weeks/months. In "pre sales" now to people who invested before and then the project was cancelled, relabelled. Prices seem to be slightly higher than when first launched 2 years ago. I wonder about the timing of this launch. I think they are just doing quiet preliminary sales and then will do the VIP agents and then finally the public. I am curious because I don't believe there will be enough local demand and therefore will they try and appeal to "investors" with Oakville's cache and being by the water though those of us who live in Oakville know this is the Oakville Burlington border and not the "east Oakville" that is referred to when people talk of Oakville. It will be a mid/upper scale project but nothing over the top or luxury so I find the prices quite high for here.
 
With the expected price declines on the horizon-- and it could be a severe decline --, time for the vultures to get ready for a kill?

much too early ... unless prices decline very quickly to $350 PSF for dt, i won't be bringing out my cheque book.
that said, if it did drop that much that quick, it's not a good thing ... expect it to drop even more and stagnate for a loonnngggg time.


Where are Condo George and Myfive: We need them to add some zest to this discussion because only the negative guys are posting now.

not negative ... just realist.
a 25-30% decrease within 5 years after 100+% increase in 10 years should not be considered 'doom and gloom'
 
[



not negative ... just realist.
a 25-30% decrease within 5 years after 100+% increase in 10 years should not be considered 'doom and gloom'[/QUOTE]

Ah but there was no growth from 1989 to 2002, so 100% over 20 years and then a 25 -30% decline is doom and gloom.

No seriously, I still think we are in for a retrace to 2007 or 2008 based on what I see as bad news now. I don't think 25-30% will happen unless the economy stays in the doldrums for the next 3 years which may well happen. I don't expect a fast rise and certainly by Bernacke's announcement things are clearly worse than everyone thought and I believe the excesses will have to be rung out of the system so growth unlikely, 10-15% decline very likely. 25-30% possibly but I don't think we have indications as of yet that it will go that far down.

With my doom and gloom comment I was saying tongue in cheek that I miss the positive posts of Condo George and My five, even if I don't share their views alot of the time.
 
[

With my doom and gloom comment I was saying tongue in cheek that I miss the positive posts of Condo George and My five, even if I don't share their views alot of the time.

Second that. I would love to hear from our men/women on the frontline. Without them we are just repeating ourselves in a circular manner.
 
Looks like it's a waiting game now.

How far will prices drop, and for how long? No one knows.

I will say, this should be one hell of a ride. Will be interesting to see what projects stall/get cancelled, as well as the price drop in pre construction prices.

I'd feel extremely nervous if I bought into projects like St. Nicholas at $700+ psf just for speculative purposes.
 
Jaybee,
One certainly would have to worried about the downside risk, wouldn't they. Upside potential seems minimal at best the next few years.
Of course, a number of posters have been waiting for "years" for a correction so eventually I guess they have to be proven right. I think it is finally upon us now but then I thought at the end of 2007/ early 2008 was frothy. It did adjust as I expected only to be faked out with another rise. However, it was irrational to rise again as rapidly so who knows. Maybe it will irrationally rise(at least irrationally in my opinion) yet again, though I doubt it.
 

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