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Baby, we got a bubble!?


this was in the comments section of the article, and imo the explanation given is exactly what happened:


Master of my domain
7/15/2010 10:17:35 AM

This was expected. Not because of the economy, low interest rates or anything else that is spouted. It is all about availability of credit, especially to buyers of multiple properties.

Look at past housing booms and busts. Pent up demand will only take you so far.

We are bombarded with the number of real estate millionaires. We see programs like flip that house and hear infomercials. Give many a chance, and they will try the same thing.

In the late 80's, many did the same thing. As banks lent on value, and valuations were aggressive, you were able to use CMHC and a line of credit based on the non-funded portion of equity to buy a house no money down. Many did cosmetic work and then sold at a profit; the unfortunate part being that most of the gain was due to rising value and not the work done.

The banks reverted to lending on cash flow at the end of 1989. What ensued was a sharp drop in volume and an ultimate crash that took Central Guarantee and many trust companies (including Confed).

People got scared and stayed away from real estate until 1996 when true pent up demand hit. This probably lasted until 2003. To continue the market, exotic mortgages came into play (0 down interest only, prime minus mortgages, etc.) Then, ABCP and other financing products created demand for mortgages causing looser standards. This again increased demand.

Ultimately, the US players started to withdraw in 2007 when their home market collapsed. As credit availability dried up, so did demand. Thus, in late 2008, the market dried up.

Into this came CMHC. They increased the amount they could guarantee, they loosened lending standards and the party started up again.

When CMHC’s 2009 results were announced, their higher than expected loan loss provisions due to an Alberta market that had not recovered caused them to break even. This must have woken up a few people because coincidentally, at the same time, lending standards tightened. Their targets were the same people that drove up demand, people who buy multiple properties with no money down and little cash flow to support the mortgage if things turn down.

Now we multiple problems.

The market - with the artificial demand created by CMHC in the last few years gone, demand will fall. As demand falls, prices will also start to fall.

With lending standards tightened and lower prices, refinancing will not be possible. So, you get the problem, lack of credit during lowered demand and a falling market. This then starts to spiral. Because CMHC propped it up for an additional 2 years, we have more height from which to fall which usually causes the market to overshoot on the way down. Given the projections for economic and job recovery, interest rates, etc., there does not appear to be something that will change this.

CMHC – their business became a Ponzi scheme in the last 2 years. When they continue with standard business practices, things chug along smoothly. When you seek more and more profits at the tail end of a bull market, problems arise.

CMHC was aggressively pursuing growth since 2008, just as the cycle was ending. The magnitude of their involvement ( /> $100 billion) caused the market to restart. Unfortunately, they do not have the equity to support this (it was built up when they were a much smaller market player) and accounts for less than 2% of their guarantees. It is insufficient if the market drops only 10%.

This is occurring during a time of emergency rates that have existed for 2 years and are having problems continuing. As prices fall, taxes and other costs rise, rates creep upwards and standards change, many people will no longer qualify for mortgages at renewal causing more product during falling demand and falling prices.

CMHC has the capacity to re-inflate the market, but at a great risk to the taxpayer. If you ask the government, they claim that this issue is a business decisions and they do not interfere in business decisions. However, since permission for doubling the amount of guarantees was given, since when is oversight on risk not their job?

Write to CMHC and they will say this is normal business practises. This is the same thing everyone said in the US in 2008 and in Canada in 1990. - flawed risk models were only recognized in hindsight.

Market – without CMHC, the market will find its own equilibrium. Unfortunately, this is well below its current level. It was on its way to that in 2008 before CMHC intervened. Unfortunately, as it was artificially inflated in 2009, it will have that much more to adjust and the more adjustment required, the more markets tend to overshoot the equilibrium.
 
Great Post CDR.

Well thought out and reasoned.

I think you are right. However, before we would have a total collapse as happened in the US which I do not think will happen here in any event,the market is inflated but not to the same degree, I believe political interference (at risk to the taxpayer as you say) will happen.
I said in my post I expected a possible retest of 2007-2008 levels.

I am asking your opinion. do you think we go back to 2008 lows then, or are we headed to 2007, or even lower?

Your theory suggests also you may believe we go back to 2003 prices in Canada(end of demand before mortgage manipulation with changing standards). This would result in about a 35-40% drop from the current peak I believe if I recall prices correctly in 2003. Or do you feel we end up somewhere above 2003 but below 2007 to 2008 peak range.

Thanks.
 
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I'm thinking 2007 prices are in order (condos were appreciating at a 5% pace from 2002-2006 and then jumped 25% in 2007 alone). It would mean a drop of between 15-20%. Especially in condos - especially, especially in smaller condos (1, 1+). Houses in the core won't feel it as much, maybe 10%, while the burbs will be hit like condos. This'll take another 12-18 months to sort out and I agree that we need a few more months of data. However, the year over year data we get will look increasingly bad bc last fall was so ridiculous - this will have a very negative effect on market sentiment and might make the correction even larger.
 
I agree this is quite plausible Simuls.
I think however we may take even longer than 12 -18 months to sort out.
I think the decline will occur over 3 years. As the decline hits, and more people have to remortgage, and don't qualify, the weaker will eventually succumb. However, if past is any predictor of future, they will hold out as long as possible. Remember, in Canada, we do not have non recourse mortgages. So I think there may well be a steady decline for a couple of years, followed by a a slow erosion over the next couple of years and then a steady price or a very slow climb from the bottom over the next few years as the cycle of pent up demand from lack of buying from the previous 4-5 years restarts.
 
hi interested,

the comments were not mine but from a poster in the comments section of the G&M; however, i agree with most of it.

regarding prices, imo, GTA RE values are between 25-35% overly-inflated, so that brings them back in line to 2006/2007. just as prices overshot going up, i believe the same will occur going down.

i don't think Canada will be subjected to an extreme bubble popping b/c those that bought pre-construction condos(and resales) in 2005/2006 that have/will be completed 2010/2011 (or resales with a 5-year term mortgage renewed) will have the advantage of lower original purchase price + still low historical mortgage rates.

as you indicated, i agree that the deflation of RE values will continue for 3-5 years.
it won't be painless, especially for those that bought in 2008-2010 who took out short-term renewals buying the maximum they could 'afford' and decided not to accelerate payments.

while Canada does not have non-recourse mortgages like the US, we do have CMHC.
i'm not completely versed on their policies/terms as i have not the need to use it, but i was under the impression that mortgages that are insured by them are, more or less, non-recourse to the mortgagee since any loss would be in theory covered by CMHC. (ie. ultimately the tax payer)
 
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hi interested,



while Canada does not have non-recourse mortgages like the US, we do have CMHC.
i'm not completely versed on their policies/terms as i have not the need to use it, but i was under the impression that mortgages that are insured by them are, more or less, non-recourse to the mortgagee since any loss would be in theory covered by CMHC. (ie. ultimately the tax payer)

I don't know either not having used CMHC. That said, I would think CMHC would make the lender whole but i am not sure they would or would not pursue the purchaser for any shortfall they would have to make up. whether they would actually take the step to put the vendor into bankrupcy to recoup is unclear. One would expect that most vendors who had bought with a CMHC insured mortgage (little money down) would not have alot of assets to pursue but failing to do so would effectively result in a situation like the US with a defacto non recourse mortgage if there is a serious meltdown so I think as a matter of policy, they would have to pursue debtors if they wanted to stem a tide of walk away vendors. However, CMHC is quasi governmental so I don't know if there would be political interference to either prevent them from doing so or not encouraging them.
 
I would like to add my 2bits worth.

It is my understanding that CMHC mortgages, as stated by Cdr 108, are, in effect, non-recourse mortgages. CMHC does not -- at least, I am not aware of -- sue a borrower for any shortfall. However, CMHC will not insure another mortgage from the same borrower.
 
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while Canada does not have non-recourse mortgages like the US, we do have CMHC.

Alberta has non-resource and the only States with non-recourse are: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Minnesota, North Carolina, North Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington
 
I would like to add my 2bits worth.

It is my understanding that CMHC mortgages, as stated by Cdr 108, are, in effect, non-recourse mortgages. CMHC does not -- at least, I am not aware of -- sue a borrower for any shortfall. However, CMHC will not insure another mortgage from the same borrower.

It is my understanding that CMHC mortgages, as stated by Cdr 108, are, in effect, non-recourse mortgages. CMHC does not -- at least, I am not aware of -- sue a borrower for any shortfall. However, CMHC will not insure another mortgage from the same borrower.[/QUOTE]

Actually I guess on reflection this would make sense since the buyers buy insurance from CMHC to guarantee the value/mortgage and the risk of some of the defaults is spread over all the premiums. It certainly would introduce a moral hazard for the 5% down and even the 10% down recent purchases since one can easily anticipate drops of this amount. I don't believe people would walk in the hope that they would recoup if their negative equity is 5% if they could continue to pay to avoid all the problems of a default and future credit, but when their negative equity position becomes 5-10% or more, then I suspect there might be a run for the exits.
In fact in the US they say the defaults of people walking away are interestingly higher among those with high end homes (mortgages of over $750K are actually defaulting more and stopping paying.)

Interestingly, they are talking about further stimulus in the US if todays Globe is to be believed??? Even more money to take out later. Isn't this just blowing air into the balloon???. I realize slightly off topic but seems relevant.
 
Actually I guess on reflection this would make sense since the buyers buy insurance from CMHC to guarantee the value/mortgage and the risk of some of the defaults is spread over all the premiums. It certainly would introduce a moral hazard for the 5% down and even the 10% down recent purchases since one can easily anticipate drops of this amount. I don't believe people would walk in the hope that they would recoup if their negative equity is 5% if they could continue to pay to avoid all the problems of a default and future credit, but when their negative equity position becomes 5-10% or more, then I suspect there might be a run for the exits.
In fact in the US they say the defaults of people walking away are interestingly higher among those with high end homes (mortgages of over $750K are actually defaulting more and stopping paying.)

Interestingly, they are talking about further stimulus in the US if todays Globe is to be believed??? Even more money to take out later. Isn't this just blowing air into the balloon???. I realize slightly off topic but seems relevant.


i suspect if the sh*t hits the fan in Canada, those buyers with CMHC insurance will walk away since there is no incentive to burden one self with an under-water mortgage for years. it took about 15 years from the last RE bubble peak of 1990 prices to be reached at 2005 just to break even, not accounting for inflation and all those mortgage interest payments.

i haven't read that article you speak of in the G&M.
unfortunately, it's political suicide and unpopular to face the facts that one's country(and individuals) have spent themselves to debt/death, so they will continue to prop up the markets any way they can to give the illusion of growth/prosperity.
 
i suspect if the sh*t hits the fan in Canada, those buyers with CMHC insurance will walk away since there is no incentive to burden one self with an under-water mortgage for years. it took about 15 years from the last RE bubble peak of 1990 prices to be reached at 2005 just to break even, not accounting for inflation and all those mortgage interest payments.

.

CDR: Last time in 1989, prices had almost tripled from 1985 to 1989 in Toronto. This is not the case now. Interest rates were around 13% vs. 5%. People could not carry and the correction was much more severe (even then I believe the dropt was about 35% from the peak) but the carrying costs drove out investors, speculators, and end users. This time, we have lower interest rates, less negative cash flow that could be borne for a while, and a less sever price escalation. I would think it will not be as bad as 1989 though it took to 1996 for prices to start to climb and as you point out around 2003 to recover fully. I would compare Toronto in 1989 to places like Florida and Arizona. Our increases where too high here the past 6-7 years but usually around 6%/year though a couple exceed 10% I believe. That is not the same as in the above mentioned US markets where it was going up 30%+ /year in the hardest hit markets or Toronto in 1985-1989 when it was close to 30-40%/year.
At least, I cling to some hope that while the correction is coming, it will not be a repeat of the US experience or Torontos 1989 peak followed by trough in 1992-1994. the numbers do not support such a drop.
Of course, other things may occur that will result in such a drop but all other things being equal, should not be as extreme. At least I hope not. LOL
 
Those of you calling for a 30-35% drop...do you currently own homes and/or investment properties? Or are you renting until the time is right? I'm just curious to see what steps you have taken to protect yourselves from the crash. If I knew for a fact that prices would drop 35% I'd sell any property I had and rent for a while until we hit the bottom then invest again. I'm sure this is a plan for many but would like to hear from the board members.
 
Those of you calling for a 30-35% drop...do you currently own homes and/or investment properties? Or are you renting until the time is right? /QUOTE]

I own a 830sq ft, 2 bed, 2 bath unit at RoCP1. When I signed for the unit, Canderel had wanted a 20% deposit to be paid in 4 quarterly installments. They did not want individuals to buy with only 5 or 10% down and walk away if economy tanked.

From the day one, I was determined to pay off mortgage asap. To that end, I even cashed my RRSPs and paid tax on withdrawals. My unit is now fully paid.

I need a place to live -- a place that I would call 'Home'. I like the location and I am staying put. Drop in prices, no matter how severe, would not make me to loose sleep. Eventaully, they will go up.

As an aside, I heard through a sales person in AURA sales office that a good number of individuals walked away from their purchases and lost 1 or 2 quarterly installments they had paid. Better to lose some money now rather than loose a bundle later. This was in March 2008.
 

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