Baby, we got a bubble!?

[TheKingEast]

Exactly. There is a building in the Avondale pocket (just south of Yonge/Sheppard) that currently has 29 units for sale (100 Harrison Garden Blvd). I would also imagine the rental to ownership ratio is quite high, but have no numbers to verify that. I would never consider purchasing in a building with such a high turnaround or a high proportion of renters (even though I am one). 80:20 in favour of owners seems to be a good indicator of a stable, liveable building.



For folks like us, who do want a condo but are turned off by the quality of product, the older units are the only ones we will even look at. But the maintenance fees on those units tend to skew upwards of $800, which is another detriment as the utility metering is not individualized (we as two people do not use as much water or hydro as a family of 4-6), cable TV is often included (we do not want it), and there are other amenities often included that we don't want or need.

It would be great to find an an older unit of, say approx 1200-1400 sq ft, with a cost of $450-500K, monthly fees of $450-550, and which is already renovated/updated, and is in our desired location. Haven't seen anything close to that yet

When the investors move on, it will be difficult for many who bought in at low money down with visions of immediate riches.



Key word is "driving". We are trying to get away from the car. In fact, it sits in the underground 6 out of 7 days, only coming out on the weekend if we decide to head out of town. The goal is to eventually use only transit and/or car share services. Unfortunately, we bought it shortly before moving from Halifax (Toronto was not on the radar yet), so it is still too new to to be worth selling.

For us, living on the subway line with walkable services and amenities is pretty much essential.

I can tell you, you're not going to find anything close to that. 1200-1400 sqft in any building is going to come with much higher fees than $450-550. You're going to need to look for a smaller unit. Also, if you want to pay low maintenance fees then a loft is your best bet. But alas, loft living isn't something I'd recommend for your situation.

I think the problem with condos is there's such limited information on the goings ons. Trying to get information out of anyone is very difficult. So it's difficult to research. You basically have to buy/rent he unit and hope for the best. While having a lot of renters isn't ideal. I'd say it's not the worst thing ever. What's more important to me is the board, property management and the actual builder. If a building is completely owner occupied, if the board, PM, builder suck then you will have a miserable experience there.

 

[NorthYorkEd]

I think the problem with condos is there's such limited information on the goings ons. Trying to get information out of anyone is very difficult. So it's difficult to research. You basically have to buy/rent he unit and hope for the best.

Agreed. We've been in this building long enough to know that should the right unit become available, we would feel comfortable buying in. When I see other buildings with such high turnarounds or several units for sale or rent, it makes me assume there are problems. As with any major purchase, I approach with a lot of caution, and I agree 100% that information seems almost purposefully withheld, and this is not the case with other types of purchases.

Back in NS, we had a website (viewpoint.ca) where you could view the sales and tax history of any real estate listing. You could see how long it had been on the market, all previous listings/sales entries, etc. TREB is fighting tooth and nail to prevent a similar amount of information being available to buyers here.

Can you imagine how great it would be if buyers in Toronto could view the same info?

While having a lot of renters isn't ideal. I'd say it's not the worst thing ever. What's more important to me is the board, property management and the actual builder. If a building is completely owner occupied, if the board, PM, builder suck then you will have a miserable experience there.

When we first looked for a condo to rent, we used a local real estate agent and saw about 10 units. Of those, about 8 were what appeared to be dedicated rental units, and without exception each was rundown, not well-kept, and showing obvious signs of neglect and occupant apathy (dirty dishes in sinks, laundry on floors, garbage on counters, filthy bathrooms, carpets, etc). Yes, those are housekeeping failures, but it was a complete turn-off. By contrast, the owner-occupied units (one of which we ended up leasing) were very clean, well-kept, and showed obvious signs of pride of ownership.

We were previously homeowners, so we carry that sensibility with us in our rental lifestyle. We care for this place as if it were our own, and we take the building rules and etiquette very seriously. This may or may not be an exception as far as typical renters go, but from what we could tell on our exploratory visit, it might just be.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Can you imagine how great it would be if buyers in Toronto could view the same info?

It would sure burst the bubble.

If potential buyers looked at our building, they would definitely think our fees seem high, at least in comparison to newer buildings. For example, there is a four or five year old building very close to us where fees are $200 or so less per month than ours. But, where we have three full bedrooms and tons of storage, they have the proverbial 2 plus a laughable windowless den and what I deem as a "condo lifestyle kitchen." Suitable for nuking a pizza and not much more. Their hydro is separate. And they're one of those glass buildings which I doubt makes them very energy efficient (although I am no expert) and may cause huge problems in a few years. Units there sell for $100K plus plus plus more than do ours, depending on size, height etc.

Bottom line is, I am persuaded most buyers, just like many of the bidding war participants of overly-staged superficially-reno'd wrecks in Leslieville, fall for the shiny stuff and are utterly clueless when it comes to the longterm implications.

I would definitely advise any buyer of any resale condo to carefully examine the reserve fund projections and status certificate, but also to look at the minutes of the board meetings which the seller should provide, PLUS any text provided by the engineering firm who performed the RFS. That's how you find out that the roof needs fixing, the garage repaving and windows replacing and a special assessment is coming down the pike.

 

[justicewhite]

Keep that asian money coming.. land transfer, property taxes, hst etc..

It seems like us Canadians would rather rent than own.. which is rather unfortunate but these people are picking up the slack and will be ahead in the long run.

Same here in London as well. Most of the prime real estate is driven by the Asian, Russian and Arab money. And, it artificially inflates the prices as well.

 

[interested]

It would sure burst the bubble.

If potential buyers looked at our building, they would definitely think our fees seem high, at least in comparison to newer buildings. For example, there is a four or five year old building very close to us where fees are $200 or so less per month than ours. But, where we have three full bedrooms and tons of storage, they have the proverbial 2 plus a laughable windowless den and what I deem as a "condo lifestyle kitchen." Suitable for nuking a pizza and not much more. Their hydro is separate. And they're one of those glass buildings which I doubt makes them very energy efficient (although I am no expert) and may cause huge problems in a few years. Units there sell for $100K plus plus plus more than do ours, depending on size, height etc.

Bottom line is, I am persuaded most buyers, just like many of the bidding war participants of overly-staged superficially-reno'd wrecks in Leslieville, fall for the shiny stuff and are utterly clueless when it comes to the longterm implications.

I would definitely advise any buyer of any resale condo to carefully examine the reserve fund projections and status certificate, but also to look at the minutes of the board meetings which the seller should provide, PLUS any text provided by the engineering firm who performed the RFS. That's how you find out that the roof needs fixing, the garage repaving and windows replacing and a special assessment is coming down the pike.

I agree with you totally. Very sage advise. The only thing I would add however is that older buildings will have presumably more repairs and new always sells for more than "old" even when "old" is renovated.
Those of the generation that are older are used to space. I think the younger group is out more, is used to less space, and presumably as they get older will have become used to less room.

 

[TheKingEast]

I agree with you totally. Very sage advise. The only thing I would add however is that older buildings will have presumably more repairs and new always sells for more than "old" even when "old" is renovated.
Those of the generation that are older are used to space. I think the younger group is out more, is used to less space, and presumably as they get older will have become used to less room.

The younger group wants stainless steel, high ceilings, ceasarstone counters. Everything else seems to be secondary. A properly built building with older appliances and 10 year old finishes will not stand a chance against a brand spanking new, poorly designed and built glass box with windowless bedroom, granite counters and european appliances.

Devleopers know this and that's how they build condos and market them.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

The younger group wants stainless steel, high ceilings, ceasarstone counters. Everything else seems to be secondary. A properly built building with older appliances and 10 year old finishes will not stand a chance against a brand spanking new, poorly designed and built glass box with windowless bedroom, granite counters and european appliances.

Developers know this and that's how they build condos and market them.

Exactly. As one real estate agent friend -- he sells mostly Riverdale and Leslieville -- puts it, they want the magic fairy shiny stuff instantly. They don't want a starter home, or a place that they can improve exactly to their liking.

Then, when they move in, they discover there's no storage. I mean, 10-15 years ago, were there so many self storage places? It seems they are everywhere now. Not every one is hiding stashes of meth money a la Breaking Bad. Most of them are filled with things that people can't fit into their 500 sf condos and hope to find room for when they move up.

Yeah, well, good luck with that. Like I posted in another thread, one couple I know just moved into a 800-900 sf condo, about 10 years old, roomier than most. The storage is a joke.

 

[Eug]

I agree with you totally. Very sage advise. The only thing I would add however is that older buildings will have presumably more repairs and new always sells for more than "old" even when "old" is renovated.
Those of the generation that are older are used to space. I think the younger group is out more, is used to less space, and presumably as they get older will have become used to less room.

I don't think that's completely accurate. A lot of the older units have bigger square footage, that's true, but what's also true is a lot of them have comparatively poor designs that waste space or which just feel dated. Also, if you're in a unit with concrete construction, it's not as if you can willy nilly knock down walls to change the space either.

 

[interested]

I don't think that's completely accurate. A lot of the older units have bigger square footage, that's true, but what's also true is a lot of them have comparatively poor designs that waste space or which just feel dated. Also, if you're in a unit with concrete construction, it's not as if you can willy nilly knock down walls to change the space either.

Actually Eug, while I agree that there may be wasted space, I think the issue is more the space was used differently.
Bathrooms were small, bedrooms large. Now it seems the master bathroom suite has to be large and gorgeous and the bedrooms are small. Kitchens were closed....I am just looking at opening one now but the kitchen size was large enough to justify it.
True, one can't knock down walls, especially if they are retaining walls. That said, however, one can still redesign a space.

Alot of new construction frankly have crazy layouts as well. For e.g., I am not a fan of linear kitchens...no counter space...and I don't cook!!
The lack of closet space was and remains a problem with most condos (there are exceptions) but with space at such a premium price, developers don't build closets because as stated before...people go for the wow factor...beautiful stainless steel appliances and backsplash...oops did not realize there was not enough cupboard space or pantry storage or room to cook. A master bath tub and a seperate shower in the master...beautiful, but the bathroom is 1/2 the size of the bedroom...which one does one spend more time in? I am not faulting the bathroom...just saying there are trade offs.
No doubt there is better use of space today...but this has evolved because the space is so expensive.

 

[Eug]

Actually Eug, while I agree that there may be wasted space, I think the issue is more the space was used differently.
Bathrooms were small, bedrooms large. Now it seems the master bathroom suite has to be large and gorgeous and the bedrooms are small. Kitchens were closed....I am just looking at opening one now but the kitchen size was large enough to justify it.
True, one can't knock down walls, especially if they are retaining walls. That said, however, one can still redesign a space.

The issue about bathroom vs bedrooms is not accurate either. If anything, bathrooms these days are often smaller than they used to be. So are bedrooms though too. You get bigger bedrooms and bathrooms though if you pay for more square footage.

 

[interested]

I don't think I agree with your last statement Eug but maybe we are splitting hairs.
The bathrooms are not smaller...they really can't get much smaller when you figure a tub, toilet and counter. The bedrooms are definitely smaller. Anyhow, I think we can agree with the paucity of space, both are shrinking. I would just suggest that in a 20 year old condo, the bathroom may have been 5 x 7 feet. The bedroom was not 9 x 10 feet...that's for sure. Probably more like 12x15 feet. However, furniture has become smaller and more purposeful so the bedroom need not be quite as large. Also, one can rationalize that we really grew to accept/expect a lot of space, more than is really necessary...especially when one looks at what happened to house sizes. "Bigger was definitely better". Not so anymore.

 

[NorthYorkEd]

I used to be hung up on the square footage, but now I see that the functionality and efficiency of a place can make all the difference. But one thing I can't overlook, as others have mentioned, is the clawback of storage space. I'm even starting to forget what a linen closet is.

Some other items that disqualify a unit immediately for us are the following:

• Bathroom right off the kitchen and/or dining room - nothing is worse than having your visiting uncle step out of the bathroom after unloading the previous night's beef stew, followed by a waft of questionable fragrance, or having to bask in the cacophony of what sounds like a bucket of chum being slopped overboard while eating or preparing your dinner.
  
  
• Entry door that dumps you right into the living space - there has to be some sort of buffer, even if it is only a 5x5 "foyer". Behold, a kitchen entry from Hullmark Centre:
  
  
  
  
  
  In addition to the 3 square feet of usable counter space, I also "love" the oven being right against the wall. Nice touch. A lot of thought obviously went into this design...
  
  
• Bedrooms that use the solarium as a light source - I have only seen this in a few older buildings around my neighbourhood, notably the Atrium on Elmhurst and a building on Kenneth Ave. It's a strange layout; I understand the intent is to replicate the sliding door access to an outside balcony, but I prefer all bedroom windows to be on outside walls and have direct views of the outdoors. The original design of the Atrium suites had sliding doors in the foyer, second bedroom, and dividing the solarium from the main living room. Must have been a big thing back when this building was constructed in 1981, but many have since renovated their units to remove them.
  
  Example of the original plan:
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Laundry in a bathroom - IMO, the only things acceptable in a bathroom are toilets, sinks, tubs, and showers.

I agree that many buyers are attracted more to final finishes than the actual "bones" of a unit. We looked at a new unit that had a beautiful modern kitchen and lots of "wow" factor in the aesthetics, but it quickly became evident that the living room allowed for none of our furniture, which is not grand by any means. We are only talking a love seat, a couple of tables, and a TV stand. The locations of the windows, balcony doors, and an inside column made any functional placement impossible. We ended up taking an older unit that did not have glistening finishes and stainless steel, but had a very functional and efficient layout.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

We looked at many condos over four or five years before making the leap. Our hunt was constrained by the fact that not many three bedroom units at halfway affordable prices were available with high walk and transit scores. (We have a car but drive extremely, and I mean extremely, rarely.) Also, we are eastsiders by nature because it's closer to Montreal. (KIDDING!)

One building we considered was the Minto Skyy at 1048 Broadview. We looked at layouts as it was being constructed and were not impressed. We like a king-sized bed and, in most suites, that was out of the question. Kitchens were laughable with room for not much than a bar-sized fridge. Wasted space in long halls. Overly large bathrooms -- seriously, who needs a double sink? -- and, while some of the closet space in some suites was good, we couldn't our much loved (fairly small-scale) antique furniture, even when down-sized, working in the "dining spaces." No room for a sideboard or buffet, for example. Forget the gorgeous big mirrors and art on those floor-to-ceiling windows.

Some of those low and mid-rise condos just west of the Beaches were also on our look-at list. I got claustrophobic.

But that's just us. Other folks might be happy moving down to leather and chrome furniture and ditching their kitchen tables. Me, I know that crappy counters and old appliances can be replaced. We gutted our large kitchen and it's a showpiece. We also did the two (small!!!) bathrooms but cleverly designed the storage (custom made) so we maxed out the space. We did not knock out walls because we like having rooms so we can escape each other. But other residents in our building have knocked out walls, moved kitchens, etc. No walls are retaining walls except those between units so it's not possible here to turn two units into one.

One thing I especially like about this place is that the kitchen, living/dining area are on one side of the foyer while the bedrooms and baths are on the other side. They are completely separate. Nobody opens a bedroom door to reveal an unmade bed. And no Uncle Gas can impose on your dinner guests.

Bottom line is, if you're older and used to a certain style of living, if you cook and own stuff like china or crystal, or more than one set of sheets and towels, an older building (with generally older and quieter residents, I would guess) is more in line for you.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Hey NorthYorkEd ...

About the atrium. A friend had that issue and removed the atrium, resulting in a bigger LR and MBR. Only trouble is, she couldn't quite close the wall at the window end. She lives alone so it isn't an issue but, if you don't live alone, and somebody wants quiet in the MBR while the LR is in use, trouble.

Also, that layout is cut off at the right so I can't see if there's a coat closet. Is there?

I find many new places open into a long hall, a warren of rooms or smack into the open kitchen on one side with a "den" on the right. I think layouts are NOT designed anymore with living in mind but with an eye to maxing out the number of units per floor.

Oh and while I am at it, where exactly does the DR table go in there?

 

[NorthYorkEd]

Hey NorthYorkEd ...

About the atrium. A friend had that issue and removed the atrium, resulting in a bigger LR and MBR. Only trouble is, she couldn't quite close the wall at the window end. She lives alone so it isn't an issue but, if you don't live alone, and somebody wants quiet in the MBR while the LR is in use, trouble.

Also, that layout is cut off at the right so I can't see if there's a coat closet. Is there?

I find many new places open into a long hall, a warren of rooms or smack into the open kitchen on one side with a "den" on the right. I think layouts are NOT designed anymore with living in mind but with an eye to maxing out the number of units per floor.

Oh and while I am at it, where exactly does the DR table go in there?

Not sure why the floorplan got cut-off, but I have posted a smaller version so you can (hopefully) see the entire layout. We actually looked at one of these units a while back. Very spacious, especially as they had removed the sliding doors from the foyer and living room/solarium to open things up. But I just did not like how the second bedroom was "nested". I also prefer some sort of separation between the living area and the bedrooms. Our current unit is only around 850-900 square feet, but the kitchen and living room are on one end while the main bath, laundry, and two bedrooms are down a short hallway. Makes a huge difference in how the space feels.

Hopefully you can also see where the DR table would fit...