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Baby, we got a bubble!?

The only thing I know for certain: The big guys will win and take your money! Little landlords are but fish in the sea....eventually they'll be screwed as well. (Builders will switch sides in a heart beat, if building rental apartments becomes more desirable and profitable, they will do it!)

On the one hand, I think condos are overbuilt; on the other hand, I love watching condos getting built! Depending on where the stock market heads--and the $INDU may go to 16000 before correcting drastically if the weekly chart is to be believed--so goes the overall housing market. So maybe it's 2012 when the poop hits the fan, just like those Mayan conspiracy theorists say? I know that the Bilderbergers think something bad is going to happen, as someone I know hangs out with their crowd....)
 
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I can't see building rental apartments becoming too much more desirable and profitable since rents have stayed more or less the same in the past 10 years and if one extrapolates that there are condo units for rent, adding more rental apartments will just drive down the price both of condos and rentals.

Obviously real estate like every other investment is cyclical. I think 2008/2009 first part was a big wake up call for everyone. Logic does dictate that nothing goes straight up so predicting a correction is not rocket science and will happen, just of question of when and more importantly how much?

I understand your association with the $INDU and I agree that both an increase and a major decrease are bad. Increase as people feel confident and this will raise prices of houses/condos, further inflating them beyond fair value, and decrease because people feel poorer and hence real estate can't go up (unless people decide to change asset classes due to a loss of confidence in say the stock market.)

I guess all one can hope for is steady increases in both at the rate of inflation or thereabout over the long term.

I can tell you that I am aware (without describing which project) that a builder group that I am familiar with has a large project under sales and as opposed to usual practice of selling 60% and stopping and waiting to get to construction and selling 20% more and then keeping 20% or so for near completion, the builder has decided to sell upwards to 90% even before breaking ground ande leaving only 10% for sale in the last year prior to construction. So I guess that echos the feelings you describe of other "Bilderbergers".
 
urbandreamer,

Below is a recent article by Dylan Grice (from SocGen) I think you'll appreciate. I too am “in the biz" working for a Canadian bank here in London. Seems to me most people view house prices as toppy and likely to fall. I too subscribe to this view in the short term. However, the short term should not be ones main focus when investing in real estate. I've mentioned this before (but have pretty much given up explaining) that even if Toronto house prices are expensive in "real" terms, they can still increase in "nominal" terms due to inflation. Global macro variables are VERY important. It's my belief that we're experiencing the beginning of a long term secular trend toward higher inflation which will ultimately deflate all fiat currencies vs physical assets. Under such circumstances, wealth often shifts from lenders (i.e. bond investors) to debtors (i.e. indebted govts). Real estate happens to be an excellent vehicle to exploit such a dynamic (albeit, with many caveats such as fixing your mortgage for at least 5-10 years, placing at least 20% down, buying the right type of property, in the right area, at the right price, etc…) as your property inflates in value whilst your mortgage debt remains fixed. Or, as I prefer to view it, your property remains fixed (in real terms) whilst your debt erodes via inflation (in real terms). This isn’t rocket science. Only some rudimentary study in financial history (and human behaviour) is all that's required.

As they say, most people “can’t see the forest for the treesâ€. :)

(Sorry, I couldn't get the graphs below to show up)

(Emphasis mine)

Print baby, print ... emerging value and the quest to buy inflation
by Dylan Grice

The eurozone's fiscal farce offers a revealing glimpse of the future: sovereign crisis begets banking crisis begets central bank nose-holding while the printing presses roll!! More immediately though, it's making equities look interesting again. Markets overall merely look less overvalued than they did. But undervaluation is emerging in some areas. And the VIX recently traded at 40. Selling out-of-the money puts at such levels (or higher), on companies you're happy to own anyway is a good way to be paid for your patience.

* The chart below shows the UK RPI from year 1300. From it, we can see that there have been inflationary episodes - the 16th century influx of new world gold and silver, the 18th century timber shortages, the early 19th century Napoleonic Wars - but that systematic CPI inflation is relatively new, and only started in earnest after WW2. This structural break coincides with the attainment of a voice in politics by ordinary people in developed economies: since voters rarely opt for economic pain, their elected representatives soon found they had to avoid it at all costs. Hence the relatively modern inflationary bias of "macroeconomic policy."

* When that inflationary bias dictated lowering rates in the face of a threatened recession more quickly than you raised them in a recovery, it seemed harmless enough. But the crash of 2008 and its sovereign debt aftermath have changed everything. It's difficult to exaggerate just how dirty the phrase deficit monetisation was when I studied economics at university: loaded with evil images of political irresponsibility and short-sightedness, it evoked the haunting spectre of catastrophic and ruinous hyperinflation. It's what they did in Weimar Germany; it helped cause WW2; to say it had an image problem would be a grotesque understatement. No wonder it's been rebranded as quantitative easing.

When faced with the prospect of a financial crash causing a nasty recession - or worse, a depression - few doubted that Anglo-Saxon central banks would do whatever was necessary, including breaking the taboo of deficit monetisation ... sorry, engaging in quantitative easing. But the ECB was supposed to be different. The ECB was supposed to be genuinely independent. The ECB was modelled on the Bundesbank - itself forged in the white hot furnace of Weimar's hyperinflationary trauma ... So it was always going to be an interesting collision: what would happen when the unstoppable force of threatened financial wipeout met the immoveable object of the ECB's hard-money dogma?

Well, the force stopped and the object moved ... sort of. The market's panic over eurozone debt subsided ... for a while, and the ECB began quantitatively easing ... kind of. The EU's "shock and awe" $1trillion rescue was certainly a big number and reflected European governments going all in. But going all in is risky if you don't have a strong hand, and the EU's seems weak. Two-thirds of the rescue money comes from the EU itself, which means that the distressed eurozone borrowers are to be saved by more borrowing by ... er ... the distressed eurozone borrowers.

So there is virtually no new money coming into the European financial system. If a small bank goes down, the problem is solved when it is taken over by a bigger bank which injects new capital into it. If a bigger bank goes down, its problem is solved when it is taken over by the government, which injects new capital into it. If a government goes down ... well, then we're stuck. Where does the new capital come from now?

Enter central banks. In 2009, the BoE printed £200bn, thus completely financing the UK government deficit. It can't have felt good about doing it but since the alternative scenario was so scary - financial meltdown and possibly IMF support - it held its nose and did it anyway. It said it was going to sterilise the intervention, but on discovering that such was the financial system distress it was unable to, it just carried on regardless. In the US, the Fed printed $1.25 trillion to monetise the problematic mortgage market. It also said it was going to sterilise the intervention, but like the BoE it soon found it couldn't, and like the BoE continued anyway because the alternative financial meltdown scenario was too scary to contemplate.

Today, the ECB is buying insolvent eurozone government debt which it is promising to sterilise. Yet they face the same stark calculus faced by their Anglo-Saxon cousins in 2008. You can only worry about the economy's ?price stability' if the economy hasn't already melted down! So here's my prediction: they won't sterilise, and the program will expand.

Since banks are typically stuffed full of government bonds (the first chart below shows eurozone financial institutions' holdings of government securities as a share of capital), instability in government debt markets implies instability in bank balance sheets. So sovereign crises and financial crises are joined at the hip (second chart below). And since financial crises affect banks' ability to lend, which poses obvious risks to the rate of employment, the need for a central bank response to the threat of financial collapse is clear:

1. Print money

2. Keep printing until the financial system stabilises

3. Worry about removing liquidity later (and if removing liquidity stresses the financial system, go back to step 1)

What's interesting is that central banks feel they have no choice. It's not that they're unaware of the risks (although there are profound behavioural biases working against them in their assessment of those risks). They're printing money because they're scared of what might happen if they don't. This very real political dilemma is what is missing from the simplistic understanding of inflation as "always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon." It's like they're on a train which they know to be heading for a crash, but it is accelerating so rapidly they're scared to jump off.

Incidentally, this is exactly the train Rudolf von Havenstein found himself on as President of the Reichsbank during the German hyperinflation. According to Liaquat Ahamed's work on von Havenstein's dilemma, in his majestic book ‘Lords of Finance' " ... were he to refuse to print the money necessary to finance the deficit, he risked causing a sharp rise in interest rates as the government scrambled to borrow from every source. The mass unemployment that would ensue, he believed, would bring on a domestic economic and political crisis, which in Germany's [then] fragile state might precipitate a real political convulsion."

Most economists seem to think that QE puts us in uncharted waters. It doesn't. Printing money to finance government expenditure is a very well trodden path which is as old as money itself: persistent monetisation causes inflation. Of course the current monetisation need not be persistent. Central banks can theoretically just stop it at any time.

But with government balance sheets in such a mess across the developed world (even with yields at historically unprecedentedly low levels), government funding crises are likely to be a recurring theme in the future. Since banks hold so much "risk free" government debt, those funding crises point towards more banking crises which point towards more money printing. When do they stop? When can they stop?

But what does it all mean? The question to my mind isn't whether or not inflation will accelerate from here. If government balance sheets are in as big a mess as I think they are, inflation is inevitable. The more interesting question is what kind of inflation can we expect?

I hope to explore this properly in another note soon, but suffice to say for the time being that the typical framework economists use to think about inflation - which they proxy by changes in the CPI - is narrow, incomplete and fails to do justice to the richness of inflation as a concept. Asset markets (e.g. real estate, equities, etc.) are as prone to inflationist policy as product markets (indeed, in recent decades they have been far more prone to inflation than product markets), so one way of buying inflation - at least in its early stages - is to buy risk assets.


Of course, buying expensive risk assets on the view that they're going to become more expensive is a dangerous game to play, but since government funding crises hammer risk assets while printing money inflates them, such funding crises should present decent value opportunities to buy into beaten up assets before the inflation ride.

Does today represent such an opportunity? We're still nowhere near the distressed "all in" valuation levels I suspect the eurozone crisis merits (let alone the weakness in leading indicators Albert has been pointing out - what will a cyclical downturn do to government budgets?), but value is emerging and there are more stocks worth nibbling on than there have been for a while. The following chart shows the percentage of ‘bargain issues'1 in the nonfinancial FTSE World index has risen to just over 2% from under 1% a few months ago.

Regular readers know that I estimate intrinsic equity values for each of the stocks in my universe (I now use the FTSE World index and include emerging markets) which I compare to the stock prices. An intrinsic value to price ratio (IVP ratio) greater than one implies intrinsic value is higher than market prices and so equities are undervalued. The first chart below shows the average IVP ratio for France, Germany, Italy and Spain at 0.85 is more attractive than it's been for some time, without being outright undervalued as it became during, say, the ERM crisis in 1992.

The next chart shows the cross section of valuations across all markets. It can be seen that the key European markets that are attractive remain the UK, Italy, and just about Norway.

The table at the end of the document shows stocks with estimated intrinsic values that are higher than current market prices (IVP>1) and these stocks deserve a closer look. I've constructed the intrinsic value model (a version of Steve Penman's residual income model) on the assumption that I want a minimum 10% return. This is quite exacting, but the stocks in the table are all currently valued at levels consistent with such performance.

Finally, the one asset class unambiguously cheap right now is volatility. The VIX and the VStoxx are trading well above their long run averages. That doesn't mean they can't trade higher still but, whether you like my IVP approach or not, you'll probably have a watch list of stocks with a clear price at which those stocks are cheap enough to buy. With the VIX above 40 - as it was earlier this week -- it's might be worth considering writing out-of-the money puts on those stocks. If you want to own them at those out-of-the money levels anyway, by writing generously priced options you're being paid well for your patience.
 
. I've mentioned this before (but have pretty much given up explaining) that even if Toronto house prices are expensive in "real" terms, they can still increase in "nominal" terms due to inflation. Global macro variables are VERY important. It's my belief that we're experiencing the beginning of a long term secular trend toward higher inflation which will ultimately deflate all fiat currencies vs physical assets. Under such circumstances, wealth often shifts from lenders (i.e. bond investors) to debtors (i.e. indebted govts). Real estate happens to be an excellent vehicle to exploit such a dynamic (albeit, with many caveats such as fixing your mortgage for at least 5-10 years, placing at least 20% down, buying the right type of property, in the right area, at the right price, etc…) as your property inflates in value whilst your mortgage debt remains fixed. Or, as I prefer to view it, your property remains fixed (in real terms) whilst your debt erodes via inflation (in real terms). This isn’t rocket science. Only some rudimentary study in financial history (and human behaviour) is all that's required.

As they say, most people “can’t see the forest for the treesâ€. :)

Here is the article with graphs.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/dylan-grice-finds-value-within-printing-orgy

Johnzz, I don't think anyone here is unable to understand the concepts you've previously presented. I think that perhaps they simply don't agree with the certainty of conclusion you have reached.

I question your belief that the governments of the world will prosper at the expense of the bond market. Further, if that were to happen would it not devastate personal wealth throughout the world and thereby weaken asset prices as people liquidate assets?

wrt the prospect for ongoing and extensive quantitative easing, I suggest that the bond markets would simply take note who is devaluing the most and transfer out of those currencies and into more secure markets.

My understanding of history is that in any confrontation between a government and the bond markets, it is always the bond markets who win.

In any event, these are certainly interesting times.
 
After hearing of all the construction and new condo proposals coming up, I am starting to think we will have one big hot mess 3 to 4 years down the road when many of these developments will be completed.

I am hoping that when the comes to a downturn in real estate in Toronto, economies worldwide will improve, lessening the blow to the Toronto market.

The landscape of downtown Toronto resembles vaguely like a mini Dubai. Lots of cranes and construction going on and lots of large impressive towers (fortunately our towers are not rediculously insane), all happening at a rapid rate.
I have a feeling these condo developments that are not finished or completely sold before 2014 will have a harder time on the market due to the existing inventory.
Unlike Dubai we have a diverse strong economy and a steady population growth so I am hoping that we are not putting all our eggs in one basket.

cmhc-dec-2009vacancyrates-789535.jpg

This charts shows how our vacancy rates in the GTA is actually growing, and I anticipate it will spike in the next few years.

By the way, it will be interesting to chart the existing number of condo/apartment units in Toronto over the last 20 years, the number of new units completed over the last 20 years, and anticipated future units based on closing dates for these new developments.
 
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I question your belief that the governments of the world will prosper at the expense of the bond market.

I wouldn't say they look to "prosper", only survive long enough to get re-elected.

My understanding of history is that in any confrontation between a government and the bond markets, it is always the bond markets who win.

Not when all governments print. Yes, bond yields should rise to reflect growing risk of inflation, default, etc... But when governments print unlimited sums to purchase bonds (thus artificially pushing down yields), the bond market cannot "win". Just ask how bond investors in Weimar Germany fared.

I suggest that the bond markets would simply take note who is devaluing the most and transfer out of those currencies and into more secure markets

Absolutely! Investors will shift from financial assets to physical assets and emerging markets.

Further, if that were to happen would it not devastate personal wealth throughout the world and thereby weaken asset prices as people liquidate assets?

This scenario will primarily weaken financial assets (paper money) in developed countries. However, everythings relative. If your net worth halves in value, and everyone else's falls 99%, you'll be seen as a very rich man.

Mind you, I'm not predicting full fledged hyperinflation, only a scenario with annual inflation averaging 5% - 10% over the next decade while "real" rates remain low. If hyperinflation kicks in, all bets are off. Real estate's no good if your family's starving...

I think the end game will ultimately result in lower standards of living for most developed countries (excluding resource based economies like Canada!).
 
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What was the worst price percentage drop in recent years for the Toronto mkt? Are some ppl saying that this has yet to come?
 
Not when all governments print. Yes, bond yields should rise to reflect growing risk of inflation, default, etc... But when governments print unlimited sums to purchase bonds (thus artificially pushing down yields), the bond market cannot "win". Just ask how bond investors in Weimar Germany fared.

All governments will not print equally, and capital tends to flow away from currencies being devalued. Most bond investers shied away from Weimar Germany for this reason. I would further suggest that Weimar Germany is a poor example since there were many other specifics of that situation.


Absolutely! Investors will shift from financial assets to physical assets and emerging markets.
Money shifted out of quantitative easing countries will weaken domestic demand and counteract inflation, while also raising interest rates as those countries seek capital from reluctant markets

The macro-economic scenario you propose might happen, but I suggest that it is hubris to view it as a 100% certainty. If you're diversified and can prosper in the face of different macro outcomes than that is one thing, but if you're putting all your eggs in one basket based upon your macro-economic theory then I'll have my fingers crossed for you.
 
I'm curious as to what all these yonge urban homeowners will do once they realire they desire a little greenspace on their property. Perhaps a mass exodus to the burbs? condos turn into rentals?
 
Not everyone is a young urban homeowner. There's also a lot of older empty-nesters moving downtown. Giving up on maintaining the private green space and enjoying the public green space :)
 
Not everyone is a young urban homeowner. There's also a lot of older empty-nesters moving downtown. Giving up on maintaining the private green space and enjoying the public green space :)

I agree that a significant portion will be empty-nesters; however, their choice of units would not be 500 SF 1 bedroom units, depending on their stage of down-sizing. many have accumulated stuff over the years and are also accustomed to larger spaces.

my guesses:
if it's a couple, then most likely 2B of ~900-1,100 SF;
or single for 1B + d of 700-750 SF.



Well, if they really crave a "little" greenspace, why not
l

LOL ... that's big enough for a cat !
 
Is there a 'safe' $/sqft level you would all advise upon if one needs to buy a condo for self-use? Anything below $500/sqft?
 
Is there a 'safe' $/sqft level you would all advise upon if one needs to buy a condo for self-use? Anything below $500/sqft?

It depends on location. Choose a good location and if you are in it for the long haul (at least 5 yrs), go ahead and purchase. As long as you are not looking to flip, you should be fine. I would also suggest waiting until the fall, unless some gr8 deal comes along.
 
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