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Baby, we got a bubble!?

CG:

You are doing something very smart but have a distinct advantage; not just you but all realtors.

1) You are investing in something you know very well. You live and breathe it.

2) If this was a stock, you would be a kin to an insider with advantages not available to the rest of the public. By this
I mean that you can buy with 3-4% off; earlier than other investors. As well by bringing in your clients; you can purchase say 4 units and if you accept that you don't make the commissions; effectively buy your unit for 20% off. Either way, you have down
side protection which other investors do not have.

3) You are connected to "unload" the investment should it go sour. Other investors have to pay a real estate commission to sell; you would save your side of the commission affording you further downside protection; can undercut other investors with resultant less loss even in a bad market.

Please note: I am not saying there is anything improper/illegal with this. However, I don't really feel this a level playing field.

In the stock market; this is "insider trading" but it is not illegal or not allowed in real estate. Whether it should or should not be allowed is a matter of debate with I am sure those benefiting from this advantage saying it is fair and others looking in saying it is not.

In fact, if I were a successful realtor which you are; I too would be an investor in real estate almost exclusively because you have(along with all realtors) a competitive edge with early access to the developer; discounted fees and abillity to favour your own sales over your other clients should the market sour. It is a bit of a rigged game.

The reality is in my view, and it is just my view; that the real estate brokers/agents have been "bought" by the developers and have added a level of bureaucracy (and expense) to all end users of real estate.

It should be illegal because it is a fucking blatant conflict of interest. In every profession, there are rules to handle this. Granted, they are not perfect and broken, but those that are caught bending them are usually punished. Consider doctors - they must disclose all of their affiliations with pharmaceutical companies before giving lectures, publishing papers, etc. Same thing for scientists, all competing financial interests must be disclosed. Insider trading, as you mentioned, is illegal in the stock market.

And I would question whether people like CG are doing something "smart". They are not. In fact, most realtors are idiots. It is not hard to become one, so one can't weed out the idiots from the profession. They are just getting lucky. They are:

a) given a competitive advantage in the ability to undercut other buyers
b) given a MONOPOLY over MLS. It does not take brains to snap a few pictures and put up a listing, sit on your ass, then collect your money.
c) are enjoying a market which is FLOODED with easy credit and foreign capital. They don't have to do shit to make the money most people take tons of schooling and training to make.

I have trouble seeing a positive thing to come from realtors. In a time where housing listings should be available online and freely, they are simply monopolisitic parasitic middlemen. They should be heavily regulated.
 
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these 2 articles seem to contradict each other ...
are they foreign or local Chinese buyers ?!?

if local, then our gov't should have no problem or resistance to enacting foreign R/E restrictions like many other nations, including China itself.

c'mon cdr, don't you know the answer by now?
"foreign or local, end-users or investors ... who cares when R/E prices always go up!"
 
An article from today's Toronto Star indirectly related to this discussion.

Young racking up debt at record pace
http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1008525--young-racking-up-debt-at-record-pace?bn=1

The study also revealed that:

•Debt-to-income ratio reached a new record high of 146.9 per cent in the first quarter of 2011, up from 144 per cent in late 2009.

•Personal lines of credit of chartered banks grew by 2.6 per cent over 2010 and the first quarter of 2011 – more than 6-fold the rate registered in 2008 and 2009.

•About one-quarter of Canadians do not save at all, even for retirement.

•One-in-five Canadians would not be able to handle a sudden expense of $5,000. One-in-ten would have trouble dealing with an unexpected expense of $500.
 
An article from today's Toronto Star indirectly related to this discussion.

Young racking up debt at record pace
http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1008525--young-racking-up-debt-at-record-pace?bn=1

The study also revealed that:

•Debt-to-income ratio reached a new record high of 146.9 per cent in the first quarter of 2011, up from 144 per cent in late 2009.

•Personal lines of credit of chartered banks grew by 2.6 per cent over 2010 and the first quarter of 2011 – more than 6-fold the rate registered in 2008 and 2009.

•About one-quarter of Canadians do not save at all, even for retirement.

•One-in-five Canadians would not be able to handle a sudden expense of $5,000. One-in-ten would have trouble dealing with an unexpected expense of $500.

Actually, I think this is directly related to this discussion. This to me is THE reason for my pesimistic view. Debt accumulated by significant % of Canadians is more of a concern for r/e prices than Carney's increase in interest rates, or any other factor. These other factors will just make it worse...
 
May home sales flat, but prices rise 8.6%

Home sales were largely flat in May compared to the same month a year earlier, but the average price went up sharply, the Canadian Real Estate Association said Wednesday.

The national average price for homes sold in May 2011 was $376,817, up 8.6 per cent from the same month last year, the CREA said.

A number of factors skewed the national average price upward, the agency said, including historically high sales activity in selected pricey Vancouver neighbourhoods and broadly based price gains in Toronto, where supply remains tight relative to demand.

"Toronto stood out as an exception, with sales activity there growing faster than new supply," CREA chief economist Gregory Klump said.

If Vancouver sales are excluded from the calculation, the year-over-year change in the national average price amounts to 5.6 per cent; excluding Toronto and Vancouver shrinks the increase to 3.7 per cent.

On a monthly basis, sales edged down by one per cent in May compared to the previous month.
 
Condo market could ‘overshoot’ in some cities, Mark Carney warns

Vancouver is ``an extreme example’’ of a Canadian housing market where sky-high prices will moderate but where some pockets could nonetheless be on the verge of overheating amid still-low borrowing costs and outside factors such as foreign investment, Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney said Wednesday.

In a much-anticipated speech to the Vancouver Board of Trade, Mr. Carney said even as growth in mortgage credit has started to slow, residential investment nationwide is now near peak levels, partly because of ``historically favourable borrowing conditions’’ but also ``potentially overly optimistic assumptions about future developments.’’

``Some excesses may exist in certain areas and market segments,’’ Mr. Carney said. ``The elevated level of `multiples’ inventories, the ample pipeline of developments under way, and heavy investor demand (much of it foreign) reinforces the possibility of an overshoot in the condo market in some major cities.’’

Without using the word ``bubble’’ to describe a housing market where prices have risen by more than 30 per cent from their lowest point during the recession, and without saying that the central bank is prepared to do anything to tame the sector, Mr. Carney left little doubt that he is concerned. Mr. Carney also noted that, in Vancouver as in other ``globalized’’ real-estate markets like Sydney and Hong Kong, Asian wealth is coming in as investors diversify and look for hard assets, contributing to valuations that in some cases are ``extreme.’’

Mr. Carney also repeated warnings that the benchmark interest rate and all borrowing rates that it influences will not stay low forever, noting that housing affordability would fall to its worst level in 16 years if the average real mortgage rate – currently at 2.4 per cent – rose to 4 per cent. Repeating warnings he has sounded for more than 18 months as Canadian borrowers binged on cheap credit, Mr. Carney said the share of households that would be ``highly vulnerable to an adverse economic shock’’ has risen to its highest level in nine years and urged borrowers and banks to be careful.

Indeed, while the mortgage market in Canada is more conservative than in places such as the United States, where the subprime lending collapse triggered the 2008 financial crisis and Great Recession, Mr. Carney pointed out that real-estate loans now make up more than 40 per cent of Canadian banks’ assets, compared with 30 per cent a decade ago, a situation he called ``unprecedented exposure.’’

``The central position of housing assets and liabilities on the balance sheets of both households and financial institutions means that any housing excesses could generate important vulnerabilities in the financial system,’’ Mr. Carney said. ``Historically low policy rates, even if appropriate to achieve the inflation target, create their own risks.’’

Mr. Carney repeated language from his May 31 interest-rate decision, at which he left the benchmark rate at 1 per cent for a sixth consecutive time, saying that even with lingering ``global uncertainties,’’ some of the stimulus in the system will be ``eventually withdrawn’’ if the economic expansion continues. In the meantime, though, Mr. Carney reiterated that Canadian authorities will ``need to remain as vigilant as they have been in the past to the possibility of financial imbalances developing in an environment of still-low interest rates and relative price stability.’’

The central banker has often suggested that policy makers view narrowly tailored regulatory changes, such as rules introduced earlier this year by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty to tighten the mortgage market, as more appropriate to deal with the issue than lifting borrowing costs throughout the economy.

In his speech, Mr. Carney said the central bank ``manages policy for the economy as a whole, rather than any specific region or sector.”

Mr. Carney likely didn’t randomly choose Vancouver to sound his latest warnings, but fresh data on Wednesday from the Canadian Real Estate Association bolster the notion that other parts of the country could be overvalued.

Prices of homes in many of Canada’s largest cities are surging. The housing market isn’t wildly hot - the pace of actual sales is in line with the 10-year average - but prices continue to escalate, rising 8.6 per cent nationally in May to $376,820 from $346,950 a year ago, according to CREA’s statistics. Vancouver is at the centre of the gains, with prices up an astounding 25.7 per cent to $831,555 from $661,745.

“If that’s not bubble terrain, what is?” Douglas Porter, a BMO Nesbitt Burns economist, wondered in a note.

Surging prices for houses in particular neighbourhoods in Vancouver - the city’s west side, for instance - are such a factor that the real estate association said if the city is removed from the national tally, the gain in prices in May would have been 5.6 per cent rather than 8.6 per cent.

Toronto prices rose 8.7 per cent from a year ago, Montreal was up 6 per cent and Regina jumped 17.8 per cent (though it has not yet cracked $300,000). However, Alberta, buoyed by oil but hurt by weak natural gas prices, is stagnant, with prices down 0.5 per cent in Calgary and 2.7 per cent in Edmonton.
 
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Stocks appear to be in a "corrective phase". Bond rates on 10 year USD Treasury is 3% or less indicating a lot of money is just treading water rather than investing. Gold has been bouncing around the $1500 mark but hasn't gone sky high. Nothing is doing really well except the real estate so I believe that buoyed with cheap money is making for real estate prices holding in the near term.

However, could Carney be any clearer that he frets our banks won't fair so well this time around if there is a real estate correction. Demand as in Vancouver is essentially a step stool with 1 leg; the Chinese foreign investor holding up the whole stool.

In Toronto, at least prices are not as high, there are more high paying jobs (for now anyhow), and it remains the major hub for Canada (other than Calgary for oil and gas). So our stool maybe has 2 legs. Less risky but not exactly the safest way to bet on an investment. And whether it justifies 8.7% price increase from a year ago.....I don't think so.

The issue is there is so much liquidity that has to go somewhere, people are still gambling on the real estate escalating.
 
TORONTO, June 16, 2011 – The number of sales and the average selling price reported by Greater Toronto REALTORS® were both up during the first 14 days of June 2011. Sales through the first two weeks of June amounted to 4,787 – up 16 per cent over the same period in 2010. The average selling price for these transactions, at $477,853, was up nine per cent.

“The spring has always been the busiest time in the resale market, but the results for May and the first two weeks of June represented a marked improvement over last year. Low mortgage rates have kept affordability in check and buyers have felt confident in paying for a home over the long term,†said Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB) President Bill Johnston.

The number of new listings on the TorontoMLS® between June 1st and June 14th was down by eight per cent compared to 2010.

“Listings have been in short supply this year, while a lot of people have been looking to buy. The result has been enhanced competition between buyers and more upward pressure on price,†said Jason Mercer, TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis. “Strong price growth will prompt more home owners to list as we move toward 2012.â€

http://www.torontorealestateboard.com/consumer_info/market_news/news2011/pdf/nr_mid_month_0611.pdf
 
It's only yoy numbers for a 2 week period, but +9% is crazy.

That likely means pricing in June 2011 will be roughly 30% higher than it was in June 2005.
 
It's only yoy numbers for a 2 week period, but +9% is crazy.

That likely means pricing in June 2011 will be roughly 30% higher than it was in June 2005.


nope, no bubbles forming here people.
please go on with your business and never mind the man behind the curtain.
 
A few quotes from Mark Carney's speech in Vancouver, as printed in the Globe and Mail, and a few thoughtful comments.

Note that Speech was given in Vancouver and not in the hogtown, otherwise known as Toronto.

"...in Vancouver, the country's pricies market, as in other "globalized' markets like Sydney and Hongkong, Asian wealth is coming in as investors diversify and look for hard assets ....'

These Asian investors do not give two hoots for the over-blown prices. Their motto is "Have money, will invest". And if, in their view, prices in Vancouver are high for their comfort, they can easily switch over to Toronto.

Get ready for R/E princes in Toronto, slowly but surely, rising to Vancouver level.

comment by the reporter: '...interest rates will eventually rise, the real estate market could still be buoyed by foreigners, over which he has little control...'

There you are folks. It is stated right here in black and white. Regulator is an 'eunuch'. The protector can not protect us anymore. Each and everyone for him/herself.

'... Do we obsess about specific real estate market in Canada? No...'

Reporter's comments: '.. Mr. Carney hinted he is no closer to raising rates than he was two weeks ago, when he kept his benchmark at 1 percent for a sixth conseqcutive time ... Mr. Carney strongly suggested that the central bank continues to see narrow financial regulation, like steps taken by the Finance Department to make it harder for some Canadians to get a mortgage, as a more appropriate tool than rate hikes...'

Almost anything and everything that can be said about interest rate hikes leading to bubble bust is said here.

No stopping or slowing investor money flowing into Vancouver and Toronto -- especially, in core downtown Toronto --,no interest rate hikes in the near or even longer term. Clear sailing for those who have some dough but not enough sense to worry about the bubble bursting.

I am getting a distinct vibe that the 'bears' -- lead ably by Interested and closely followed by Redfirm and Daveto -- are having second thoughts about their opinions and, helplessly, watching the good times to invest go by.

If anyone still has any doubts, then, read the post about princes increases in June so far and Eug's comments on this price rise.
 
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The issues are that Realtors have set up the 'bidding' scheme where they leverage the emotional rationales of homebuyers. Home purchasing is an investment, not an emotional purchase. There should be a '5 to 10 day' cooling off period, where by the buyer be able to 'back' out of a deal, with small financial penalty The bubble will continue until a serious shock to the system. I.e. intrest rate rise, massive layoffs, economic uncertainty.

Too many young buyers base home prices on monthly affordability, babyboomer parents will bail them out. The last 10 year has shown that even if you make a mistake, you'll be able to 'flip' the home in 2 to 3 years.
The bubble continues
 
It's only yoy numbers for a 2 week period, but +9% is crazy.

That likely means pricing in June 2011 will be roughly 30% higher than it was in June 2005.

30% increase in 6 years or 5% per year. Is it unreasonable when the rates were hovering around 5%?
 
5% per year isn't that bad per se, but 2004-2005 is when pricing ascended above the historical Toronto price increase trend line. We are now about a third beyond that 2005 pricing which may suggest we are double digit % above where we probably would be had we followed pricing trends.
 
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