Atheists hope (don't pray) to bring ads to Toronto (G&M)

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I'm sorry, but that's as irrelevant as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

transportfan said:

"the Reformation was an HISTORICAL FACT and it put an end to the corruption of the established church of the middle ages and ended the persecution by those so-called "Christians"."

i proved, with the actual writings of martin luther, the man responsible for the reformation, that the reformation didn't put an end to the persecution. in fact, martin luther's own writings call for the persecution of jews:

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...

are you going to tell me that this is not persecution and corruption?



BTW, the hitler link you posted. hitler was raised a catholic, fell in love with martin luther and then most likely a deist till the end of his life.

over 18 million nazis had belt buckles with these words on them: "gott mit uns". it means "god with us".

 

[digi]

They may have believed what they were doing came from God, but they believed W-R-O-N-G, as I said for what...the third time now?

You may believe you're right, but you're wrong W-R-O-N-G !!

You have got to be the most stubbornly argumentative person I've come across.

You're feeling challenged.

I think it's time to jump off this merry-go-round now.

You have no logical argument, so you're taking your ball and going home.

 

[Transportfan]

transportfan said:


i proved, with the actual writings of martin luther, the man responsible for the reformation, that the reformation didn't put an end to the persecution. in fact, martin luther's own writings call for the persecution of jews:





are you going to tell me that this is not persecution and corruption?

Okay. You've brought up a point that's a little more difficult to answer. But let me just say that throughout history usually mild antisemitism has been quite common, with some Christians wrongly thinking that the coming of Christ ended the era of Israel. Luther might have been an extremist in this regard (and thus his Christianity might have been suspect, but there were other reformers as well), but I will say that the Reformation did end the persecutions of the Middle Ages and ushered in a new era of generally in-line with the bible Christianity.

You also have to remember that human beings aren't perfect and that there will be some Christians that don't think the correct way all the time. But there is a limit though to how far you can go, and the Inquisitors and probably Luther crossed that line.

 

[Transportfan]

You may believe you're right, but you're wrong W-R-O-N-G !!

Typical response from someone who hates getting owned.

 

[afransen]

Ok, seeing as we can't proceed on the basis of who some guy on the internet says is Christian and who is not, it seems better to go with 'people who identify themselves as Christian are Christian'. They may not be Transportfan's brand of Christian, but they are the majority. I guess they're all Christians--it's just that most are hypocrites, too.

 

[Ziggy]

All these discussions of historical good and evil deeds may be of some interest, but it really has nothing to do with whether god exists or not.

Even if a belief in good makes people better and more moral, or helps them in some other way, that doesn't make the belief true. Maybe believing in the tooth fairy will make people brush their teeth, which is a good thing, but that doesn't mean the tooth fairy actually exists. Maybe religion helped some alcoholic guy quit drinking, or makes people feel better about their lives, but that has nothing to do with whether it's true or not.

Personally, I find it more satisfying to believe in things that are actually true. And when trying to determine if something is true or not, I try to base my decision on observable evidence and reason. Others base their beliefs on faith. It's pretty hard to argue against a belief based on faith, since, by it's very definition, faith consists of deliberately ignoring evidence and believing something for no rational reason.

Here's a question: What would it take to make you change your mind? As an atheist, I can say that if some convincing evidence came along that god exists, I would change my mind. So, for Christians (or other religions), is there anything that could convince you to change your mind? What would it take? And if there's no possible way that you would ever change your mind, that what's the point of having all these discussions?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Okay. You've brought up a point that's a little more difficult to answer. But let me just say that throughout history usually mild antisemitism has been quite common, with some Christians wrongly thinking that the coming of Christ ended the era of Israel. Luther might have been an extremist in this regard (and thus his Christianity might have been suspect, but there were other reformers as well), but I will say that the Reformation did end the persecutions of the Middle Ages and ushered in a new era of generally in-line with the bible Christianity.

You also have to remember that human beings aren't perfect and that there will be some Christians that don't think the correct way all the time. But there is a limit though to how far you can go, and the Inquisitors and probably Luther crossed that line.

yes, human beings are not perfect. jesus was also a human being, was he not?

what exactly is "in line with the bible christianity"? biblical literalism? if you try to follow some of the instructions in the bible, you could end up in jail. if you try to follow all the instructions in the bible, you might lose your mind. how can you follow "stone disobedient children to death" and "thou shalt not kill" at the same time?

and if jesus is god, isn't he also the same god of the old testament? if he isn't, why have the old testament included in the bible as holy text? as this would be the description of another god of another religion, not christianity. if he's the son of god or a prophet, doesn't that mean that the god of the old testament is still god, his father? any which way, it's the same god that's god, the scary one that likes to drown the earth, practice eugenics, demand people be killed for picking up sticks on the sabbath, etc.

does this sound like a force of good to you? especially when this deity can defy the rules of nature and do as he pleases? he's got magical powers. instead of sending plagues upon egypt, etc, couldn't he just wave a wand any make everything good? why did jesus have to die for everyone to be "saved" ??? this is the all powerful all knowing god that can do anything he wants but he couldn't figure out another way to save all humanity.

maybe fathers have to send their sons into war to be sacrificed in order to save society from an evil oppressor but these are mere humans. if god can create the universe and all the rules that govern it, and bend those rules at will, i'm sure he could have found another way for humanity to be saved that didn't require the blood of jesus. if he couldn't he's not all powerful. and like epicurus said, why call him god then?

 

[Hydrogen]

They may have believed what they were doing came from God, but they believed W-R-O-N-G, as I said for what...the third time now?

You have got to be the most stubbornly argumentative person I've come across. I think it's time to jump off this merry-go-round now.

So you have presumed that you are the arbiter of who is sufficiently christian and who is not. That's rather judgmental of you. The fact is, these inquisitors thought themselves as very righteous christians and carried out their actions in the name of god. Of course, this is the problem: people assume powers on the basis of what they imagine to be their superior beliefs, and not on any quality or rationale that can be verified.

People who assume superior knowledge on the basis of their beliefs alone usually run into problems when asked to state why those beliefs are supposedly superior.

 

[digi]

they may have believed what they were doing came from god, but they believed w-r-o-n-g,

typical response from someone who hates getting owned.

lol

 

[urbanboom]

yes, human beings are not perfect. jesus was also a human being, was he not?


maybe fathers have to send their sons into war to be sacrificed in order to save society from an evil oppressor but these are mere humans. if god can create the universe and all the rules that govern it, and bend those rules at will, i'm sure he could have found another way for humanity to be saved that didn't require the blood of jesus. if he couldn't he's not all powerful. and like epicurus said, why call him god then?

The way I look at it is this: God could've created a perfect world, with no such thing as evil. We could've been just mindless drones who does everything God says like a robot. But God didn't make us that way; he gave us free thought. He acts as our guide, but not as our puppeteer. (Or as he puts it, the shepherd to the lambs.)

God could've just drown the whole evil world like he did with Noah, but he chose not to. The world was saved not by a flaming giant descending from the flaming sky, but by a small child being born in a stable to a mother not important enough to get a room at the inn. Us, with free-thought, were left the task to "prepare his room to welcome him" AKA rebuild the world. And you must admit, the world is a better place than it was 2000 years ago.

We all take it for granted the laws and general compassion of man, but it wasn't always like that. You think we have wars now? Peace barely extisted; democacy didn't exist. It took the ideas of a revolutionary reformer to even spread the idea of peace. But you must remember that peace and freedom takes work. We had to fight the many dangers such as fascism, communism, dictators, sometimes even the church itself. (Even other Christians can be a barrier to God. As Gandhi famously said: "I like you Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.")

If all things just happened, and all was just simply good, how would we know what "Good" even was? How would we know "peace" had we not know "war"? How would we have known "Love" if there was not "Hate". Evil itself cannot and will not be destroyed forever. What we can do is live our lives to the best that it can be. Love until it hurts: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13 , whether it be through Christ, other religions or through non-faith, the journey must be taken.

 

[urbanboom]

transportfan said:


i proved, with the actual writings of martin luther, the man responsible for the reformation, that the reformation didn't put an end to the persecution. in fact, martin luther's own writings call for the persecution of jews:





are you going to tell me that this is not persecution and corruption?



BTW, the hitler link you posted. hitler was raised a catholic, fell in love with martin luther and then most likely a deist till the end of his life.

over 18 million nazis had belt buckles with these words on them: "gott mit uns". it means "god with us".

It seems that God wasn't very kind to him, seeing as he lost the war.

 

[simply Dan]

Donations to the Canadian Atheist Bus Campaign can be made here:

http://atheistbus.ca/

 

[Transportfan]

yes, human beings are not perfect. jesus was also a human being, was he not?

Well, to atheists He was merely human.

 

[Transportfan]

And you must admit, the world is a better place than it was 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure about 2000 years ago, but it certainly was better several generations ago. And this guy (an atheist, BTW,) agrees. http://www.darkage.fsnet.co.uk/WorldContradictions.htm

 

[Transportfan]

So you have presumed that you are the arbiter of who is sufficiently christian and who is not. That's rather judgmental of you.

I'm not the arbiter of who's a Christian or who isn't (and never claimed I was). God is.