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Are you voting strategically for Tory?

I'm voting for Tory because


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AlvinofDiaspar

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I'd wager that a Toronto-focused forum on urban issues is more likely to skew young and pro-Chow than the general population. The internet turns into a big echo chamber for political views because people sort themselves into niche communities like this one. Urban Toronto is actually a bit of an anomaly in that it attracts people with varied opinions...
We do however demand a modicum of good behaviour, which have a tendency to screen out the FN types.

AoD
 
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kEiThZ

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I don't either. But it is surprising to me that we keep electing white, heterosexual men to be mayor in a city as diverse as Toronto. If you asked me 30 years from now, I would have bet that we'd have at least one non-white mayor by now.
That's a function of who runs. And I think it takes time for immigrants to get established and develop a political base.

But I do find it particularly offensive that people think I should vote for someone based on their race or gender. I certainly wouldn't want my job based on my race or gender. I'd like to know I got it because I'm qualified.
 

nfitz

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But I do find it particularly offensive that people think I should vote for someone based on their race or gender. I certainly wouldn't want my job based on my race or gender. I'd like to know I got it because I'm qualified.
And yet by far the most qualified and experienced candidate during this campaign is Asian and female.

And yet we've had some Conservative supporters telling us that we should vote for her because she's Asian, and that she should go back to China.
 

kEiThZ

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And yet by far the most qualified and experienced candidate during this campaign is Asian and female.

And yet we've had some Conservative supporters telling us that we should vote for her because she's Asian, and that she should go back to China.
You know as well as I do, those loud bigots weren't "Conservative supporters". That's quite the stretch. Are you going to suggest that Conservatives like Bill Davis and Brian Mulroney were racists?

And the judgement of Chow as the most qualified candidate is up to each voter. I certainly don't think she's more qualified to lead this city, than Tory. And I voted accordingly.
 

nfitz

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You know as well as I do, those loud bigots weren't "Conservative supporters". That's quite the stretch.
They were supporting a long-time Conservative. As far as I know they are Conservative supporters.

Are you going to suggest that Conservatives like Bill Davis and Brian Mulroney were racists?
I don't see the link here. Simply because some Conservatives aren't racist, doesn't mean that other's aren't. Would you suggest that other Conservatives like Randy Hillier aren't?

And the judgement of Chow as the most qualified candidate is up to each voter. I certainly don't think she's more qualified to lead this city, than Tory. And I voted accordingly.
Chow has years of experience as Toronto councillor, and years in Ottawa as an elected MPP. Tory has won very little, other than a by-election in a very safe rural Conservative seat that was gifted to him as leader of the Conservative party by Ernie Eves. If one leaves politics out of this, then Chow is infinitely more experienced and qualified than Tory.
 

kEiThZ

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Chow has years of experience as Toronto councillor, and years in Ottawa as an elected MPP. Tory has won very little, other than a by-election in a very safe rural Conservative seat that was gifted to him as leader of the Conservative party by Ernie Eves. If one leaves politics out of this, then Chow is infinitely more experienced and qualified than Tory.
This is the line of thinking used by many Republicans to claim Obama was never qualified to be President. Not enough time in.

I say nonsense. Leadership in politics is about a lot more than time in. Or there would be a lot backbenchers qualified to take up political executive positions.

In any event, how you judge a candidate to be qualified, is not universally applicable to every voter. And that's the point. To argue that one must set aside their criteria to consider race and gender paramount is a rather offensive idea....to me anyway.
 

nfitz

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This is the line of thinking used by many Republicans to claim Obama was never qualified to be President. Not enough time in.
Uh, no. Obama had over a decade as a Senator at the state and federal levels, winning elections in 1996, 1998, 2002, and 2004 before running in the 2008 Presidential election. John Tory's entire career as an elected politician is only 2 years.

Also, I merely said that Chow is more qualified. I haven't argued that Tory is unqualified.

I think you have failed to leave politics out of this.
 

Riverdale Rink Rat

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They were supporting a long-time Conservative. As far as I know they are Conservative supporters.

I don't see the link here. Simply because some Conservatives aren't racist, doesn't mean that other's aren't. Would you suggest that other Conservatives like Randy Hillier aren't?

Chow has years of experience as Toronto councillor, and years in Ottawa as an elected MPP. Tory has won very little, other than a by-election in a very safe rural Conservative seat that was gifted to him as leader of the Conservative party by Ernie Eves. If one leaves politics out of this, then Chow is infinitely more experienced and qualified than Tory.
If one leaves politics out of this, one would say Tory is by far more experienced in leadership roles as he led both a top law firm and top Canadian public company as well as a political party (albeit as the Official Opposition). Chow has way more time in the political trenches, sure, but her only 'leadership' role is as the Opposition Transport Critic in the NDP's Shadow Cabinet, correct?
 

nfitz

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If one leaves politics out of this, one would say Tory by far more experienced in leadership roles as he led both a top law firm and top Canadian public company as well as a political party (albeit as the Official Opposition). Chow has way more time in the political trenches, sure, but her only 'leadership' role is as the Opposition Transport Critic in the NDP's Shadow Cabinet, correct?
On paper. His former boss at Rogers trashing his leadership skills gives me pause though.

Go back to my point though.

TheTigerMaster expressed surprise that in such a diverse city, we keep electing white men. And KeItHz replied that it's a function of who runs, and that it takes time for immigrants to get established ... etc.

My point is that on this basis, we do have a non-white non-man running that meets this criteria, and in many ways is the most experienced and qualified.
 

Riverdale Rink Rat

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TheTigerMaster expressed surprise that in such a diverse city, we keep electing white men. And KeItHz replied that it's a function of who runs, and that it takes time for immigrants to get established ... etc.

My point is that on this basis, we do have a non-white non-man running that meets this criteria, and in many ways is the most experienced and qualified.
I arrived in Toronto in 1991, so my mayors in Toronto were non-man, non-man, non-white (well, at least non-WASP), left-of-centre white guy, cracking-smoking right-wing crazy. My experience is Toronto politics was that we don't elect 'just white men' at all, and that one of the two we did elect was bat-shit crazy. So, I'm all for diversity of appearance/gender. It's the diversity of drug use we need to squash.

I'm impressed how quickly we forget Rowlands and Hall but remember Lastman.
 

cassius

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In my opinion, Ford doesn't have a chance, and I think there's even a small possibility of a 3rd place finish for him.

The way I see it, it's a split vote in the suburbs between Tory and Ford. Downtown may have a split vote between Chow and Tory, but likely only because many of those that wanted to vote Chow will vote Tory out of fear of Ford More Years. That same mentality exists in parts of the suburbs, though to a much lesser extent. Ford will not be involved in a split vote downtown, where his ratings are as low as 12%. A little higher than that amongst the younger but less-voter-turnout crowd. So even a perfectly split vote downtown between Tory and Chow wont deliver Ford a victory because of the split in the suburbs.

Ford at most has a split of the suburbs, Tory a split of the suburbs and downtown, and Chow a split of the downtown. Those that would vote for Chow but are strategically voting for Tory are likely to have never voted Ford anyways, so for those citizens you're really trading one for the other under the fear of a highly unlikely (impossible, IMO) Ford victory.

I will therefore be voting for who I most align with and not strategically vote in the sense that I must make sure Ford is not elected as I don't even see it as being a possibility.
 

kEiThZ

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Uh, no. Obama had over a decade as a Senator at the state and federal levels, winning elections in 1996, 1998, 2002, and 2004 before running in the 2008 Presidential election. John Tory's entire career as an elected politician is only 2 years.
Didn't know political experience was prerequisite to run for office.

It certainly isn't for me. I'm glad to see civic minded citizens who were/are active in the community, run for office. Exactly the kind of people we need.

Also, I merely said that Chow is more qualified. I haven't argued that Tory is unqualified.

I think you have failed to leave politics out of this.
I failed to leave politics out of this?

Explain "Chow is infinitely more qualified than Tory".

I'd love to know how one can qualify or quantify "infinitely more qualified".

You seem to lack the ability to qualify your opinion as yours, and not the universal truth. When 30-40% of the public votes for the other candidate, there's clearly quite a few of us that don't share your view. One would think you could be respectful of that.
 

nfitz

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I arrived in Toronto in 1991, so my mayors in Toronto were non-man, non-man, non-white (well, at least non-WASP), left-of-centre white guy, cracking-smoking right-wing crazy. My experience is Toronto politics was that we don't elect 'just white men' at all, and that one of the two we did elect was bat-shit crazy. So, I'm all for diversity of appearance/gender. It's the diversity of drug use we need to squash.
I don't think I'd have ever in a thousand years ever called Lastman non-white. I hadn't even realised until I just googled him that he wasn't Protestant ... though I seldom pay much attention to religion. I have no idea if Miller is Protestant or not. And to tell the truth, I have no idea if Chow is Protestant or not ...

Yes, the old city of Toronto, and even some other cities had female mayors.

I failed to leave politics out of this?

Explain "Chow is infinitely more qualified than Tory".

I'd love to know how one can qualify or quantify "infinitely more qualified".
I didn't say "infinitely more qualified". I said "infinitely more experienced and qualified"

Tory has only ever won a single by-election. And lost a general election. Chow won elections in 1985, 1988, 1991, 1994 1997, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2008, and 2011. I think I made the criteria I was using clear before.
 
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King of Kensington

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I don't think I'd have ever in a thousand years ever called Lastman non-white. I hadn't even realised until I just googled him that he wasn't Protestant ... though I seldom pay much attention to religion. I have no idea if Miller is Protestant or not. And to tell the truth, I have no idea if Chow is Protestant or not ....
"WASP" and "white" are not synonymous. WASPs are whites of British Isles or at least northwest European Protestant background. "Ethnic whites" like Jews, Italians, Poles, Ukrainians and Greeks are certainly accepted as white today but aren't WASPs either.
 
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JGHali

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I arrived in Toronto in 1991, so my mayors in Toronto were non-man, non-man, non-white (well, at least non-WASP), left-of-centre white guy, cracking-smoking right-wing crazy. My experience is Toronto politics was that we don't elect 'just white men' at all, and that one of the two we did elect was bat-shit crazy. So, I'm all for diversity of appearance/gender. It's the diversity of drug use we need to squash.

I'm impressed how quickly we forget Rowlands and Hall but remember Lastman.
I wasn't really old enough to be aware of it at the time (to put it mildly), but I do know about Rowlands and her opposition to a Barenaked Ladies concert on, shall we say, spurious grounds.

Calling Lastman "non-white" is ludicrous.

WASPs, by definition, are Protestants of British descent, historically associated with the Family Compact and Orange Order Parades.

Whatever one might think of Tory, he is certainly the most "Family Compact"-esque would-be mayor since before Nathan Phillips.
 

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