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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

I certainly hope that there will be a buy-canadian element to the rolling stock, although a designed-in-canada initiative would be unwise.... an "off the shelf" design that is already proven elsewhere would arrive sooner and eliminate a lot of risk. Right now there aren't that many railcar builder jobs at risk from tariffs etc so rolling stock isn't a political focus. And there may be benefit in buying off shore as a means of cementing a broader trade relationship with a new trading partner (as is hinted with fighter jets). A US led product is probably off the table altogether.

- Paul
Still early, but the rolling stock contract likely will be really scrutinized by the public in regards to domestic economic benefits. Folks will be coming out of the woodwork crying foul if the contract doesn't contain domestic manufacturing, even though it likely wouldn't be feasible to do so.
The leading choice would normally be Alstom made trains from Western New York considering part owner CDPQ is a proponent of the project, but that's likely a non-starter like you said. I could see them ordering French-built trains as part of a broader trade deal.
 
Thought this was interesting about special expedited expropriation rules for HxR.

im always confused by those who think their rights to being paid for taking of their property extend to strong-arming the government for 5 years before giving it up
 
Is there any kind of a schedule for anticipated start of construction and completion?

From the PMO (ironically similar but different acronym) announcement of the first tranche of MPO (sic) approved projects

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Interesting nitpicky detail - The PM's announcements describe Alto as a "strategy" rather than as a discrete project covered under the MPO mandate.

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Apparently "strategies" are things that aren't as far along and/or shovel ready, or that are being driven and funded outside the MPO and do not follow the MPO's review process.

(You say po-tay-toe......)

- Paul
 
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There is a balance. When there is a real need, the government should be able to expropriate land for fair compensation in a timely manner. What you don't want is needless expropriation, like when the NCC expropriated LeBreton Flats in the 60's for redevelopment, demolished all the buildings and then sat on it for over 50 years and is only just now slowly redeveloping it.
 
There is a balance. When there is a real need, the government should be able to expropriate land for fair compensation in a timely manner. What you don't want is needless expropriation, like when the NCC expropriated LeBreton Flats in the 60's for redevelopment, demolished all the buildings and then sat on it for over 50 years and is only just now slowly redeveloping it.
Thank you! This is exactly where I start to feel very unease with the “High Speed Rail Network Act”, which is certainly amplified by ALTO’s deeply entrenched intransparence and outright secrecy about the kind of information any individual citizen would need to assess how they personally will be affected by this project. It is an urban legend that strong property rights dictate that you can’t expropriate anyone without proving that this particular property is indispensable when building this project (which it rarely is outside of urban cores, as there will always be multiple corridors).

Instead, the appropriate test is to proof that not acquiring and using this particular property would increase the overall negative impact (or lower its net benefit) and this is the driving force behind the iterative public consultations and route refinements you find documented in the presentations you can download for German HSR projects like Frankfurt-Mannheim, Fulda-Gerstungen, Ulm-Augsburg or Munich-Kufstein: the only way to demonstrate that your chosen route is the best way to address the project‘s objectives is to contrast it with any plausible alternatives - and you want those to surface during the planning and not the arbitration stage.

And that‘s where ALTO is simply anachronistic to the last few decades of HSR construction in Europe and its contempt for a meaningful public engagement and hubris in deciding a route without any public inputs is bound to create bitterness and burned bridges to a similar degree as the CDPQi has already achieved with their REM scheme amongst neighborhood groups across Montreal…
 
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(Thinking this discussion ought to shift back to the Alto thread?)

Some of the legislative thrust may just be boilerplate - in the sense that the existing Canadian law does set out a preliminary hurdle where someone (a Minister or Tribunal usually, but this is where the matter can be taken to the courts and challenged) has to determine at the outset that the proposed works are "of benefit to Canada".

In the case of Alto, the legislation simply fast forwards past that hurdle by declaring that the project is indeed of benefit to Canada. That declaration probably disarms many of the legal challenges that have arisen in Florida, Texas, and California and would likely arise here as well. That's a prudent and proactive step - and justifiable given that Canada has a rich library of past studies and proposals, most of which did conclude that something HSRish was worth building.

I can't agree more with @Urban Sky - an ounce of consultation avoids a pound of opposition or litigation - but as we are seeing in those other areas, litigators will reach for all possible levers, and consultation often simply results in demands that amount to delay tactics - and then to allegations that consultations were insufficient or insincere. There will definitely be winners and losers, in routing and in individual property outcomes. It's a good thing to set expectations at the outset so no one believes there must be perfect consensus before proceeding.

It remains to be seen if the routing and land decisions are generally made objectively and fairly. (At least this is being done in Ottawa with some professional guidance - in Ontario these decisions are influenced by whoever has DoFo's private phone number). And assuming the route selection largely follows the former CPR and CNR lines where these are available, the number of route-miles, acres and number of individual land owner impacts is not as overwhelming as it may sound.

Acts of Parliament remain subject to legal challenge, and the Alto legislation is no different - and we have not passed the point where someone might challenge the whole plan. There may still be some of that, possibly around how the price of expropriated land is determined. Personally I'm willing to give Ottawa some slack here, although I agree that transparency is paramount.

- Paul

PPS - we have come a long way from the days when the St Lawrence Seaway was built, with whole towns being relocated and old ones flooded. If today's consultative and assessment regimes were in place in the 1950s, that infrastructure would never have been built. Maybe this is a good place to find a happy medium.
 
I don't think I've seen this posted here before. This is a screenshot from ALTO's website. The field studies they did this year are apparently heavily concentrated between Ottawa and Montreal, while the earlier high frequency rail studies were more spread out.
Perhaps Ottawa to Montreal is to be built first.

But gosh, that almost looks like they are considering two routes. One along the south side of the Ottawa River, presumably like what we'd expect. And one on the north! o_O
 
I can't agree more with @Urban Sky - an ounce of consultation avoids a pound of opposition or litigation - but as we are seeing in those other areas, litigators will reach for all possible levers, and consultation often simply results in demands that amount to delay tactics - and then to allegations that consultations were insufficient or insincere.
Yes, public (!) consultations will last at least 3 years before the route can be finalized, but this is exactly the reason why they are normally done as early as possible in the planning process, so that you don't waste years in your little silo planning your route which will require substantial modifications once it is revealed to the public. This is why HSR planning is now done in public and almost in real time, where first the objectives are presented, then the "spatial resistances" (like environmentally sensitive areas) are identified and "rough corridors" are defined within which much narrower "fine corridors" are drawn, as demonstrated here for the Hanau-Fulda HSR line (the one which "The Onion" mentions in this hilarious pre-match report for the famous 2014 FIFA World Cup half-final between Germany and Brazil):

Step 1: Defining the "search area" and identifying the "spatial resistances"
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Step 2: Identifying the "rough corridors"
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Step 3: Drawing the "fine corridors"
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Step 4: Selecting the "retained corridors"
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Step 5: Optimizing the "retained corridors" to "route variants"
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If I look at this map, it seems like ALTO is going the opposite direction, where the "search area" has apparently been expanded recently to also allow for north-shore alignments west of Montreal:
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Thanks! Curious as to whether or not renovations need to be done at Union or are they looking at a development partner (Oxford) to incorporate a new section with a project.
 
Perhaps Ottawa to Montreal is to be built first.

But gosh, that almost looks like they are considering two routes. One along the south side of the Ottawa River, presumably like what we'd expect. And one on the north! o_O
Currently no route has been announced as the final one. This could be that they are looking at all options to be able to give more than one option as a way of due diligence, but still pick the one option that has been referred to.
 

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