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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

cplchanb said:
Well ill believe it when I see the first shovels in the ground. Ill be old by the time it finishes
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People used to say that about the Relief Line, look where that is now.

Projects like this are theoretically possible, they just need urgency and capital, both political and financial.

Alto seems to be getting that now. 12 months ago it "existed" but didn't have that and I would have agreed with you, just like when the relief line was being run by the City pre-2019. Sure, the "relief line" existed as a concept and was "advancing" - but it was that kind of project that was just never going to go anywhere real, sort of like the Waterfront East streetcar.. But in 2019, the Ontario Line came to the scene with actual capital behind it and urgency, and just like that, it's happening.

The same here. HFR has been hanging around for a decade as a glimmer in some federal employees eyes - Trudeau gave Alto some notional approval to continue that paper-pushing.. Carney seems to be putting it in real urgency now as a key part of his political platform. That means something.

We will have to see.
 
guavadelic said:
There seems to be a heavy focus buying Canadian when it comes to the supply of Steel. Has there been any indication if the same stipulation will apply to the rolling stock?
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I suspect the steel focus is a little bit political, given the tariff saga has especially put Canadian steel mills at risk - but there may be good business sense in locking in material prices now. And even if no steel is produced or delivered in the immediate future, the commitment to buy Canadian may be compelling to our steel mill investors and creditors.... to the point where mills that might otherwise shut down are kept around until needed.

It's too soon to talk about rolling stock, and one must remember the contribution of the trains to the overall price tag is only so important. Rail enthusiasts habitually gravitate to thinking about the rolling stock, but the bigger price tag lies in the civil works and things like signalling. (Which by the way are both fascinating areas for railroading, and worth enthusiasts' attention).

I certainly hope that there will be a buy-canadian element to the rolling stock, although a designed-in-canada initiative would be unwise.... an "off the shelf" design that is already proven elsewhere would arrive sooner and eliminate a lot of risk. Right now there aren't that many railcar builder jobs at risk from tariffs etc so rolling stock isn't a political focus. And there may be benefit in buying off shore as a means of cementing a broader trade relationship with a new trading partner (as is hinted with fighter jets). A US led product is probably off the table altogether.

- Paul
 
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crs1026 said:
I suspect the steel focus is a little bit political, given the tariff saga has especially put Canadian steel mills at risk - but there may be good business sense in locking in material prices now. And even if no steel is produced or delivered in the immediate future, the commitment to buy Canadian may be compelling to our steel mill investors and creditors.... to the point where mills that might otherwise shut down are kept around until needed.

It's too soon to talk about rolling stock, and one must remember the contribution of the trains to the overall price tag is only so important. Rail enthusiasts habitually gravitate to thinking about the rolling stock, but the bigger price tag lies in the civil works and things like signalling. (Which by the way are both fascinating areas for railroading, and worth enthusiasts' attention).

I certainly hope that there will be a buy-canadian element to the rolling stock, although a designed-in-canada initiative would be unwise.... an "off the shelf" design that is already proven elsewhere would arrive sooner and eliminate a lot of risk. Right now there aren't that many railcar builder jobs at risk from tariffs etc so rolling stock isn't a political focus. And there may be benefit in buying off shore as a means of cementing a broader trade relationship with a new trading partner (as is hinted with fighter jets). A US led product is probably off the table altogether.

- Paul
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I think transit enthusiasts hype the rolling stock a bit too much, you can have the fanciest trains in the world, but if the maintenance cars, rails, and signalling arent great as well, it still wont make a good transit line
 
innsertnamehere said:
People used to say that about the Relief Line, look where that is now.

Projects like this are theoretically possible, they just need urgency and capital, both political and financial.

Alto seems to be getting that now. 12 months ago it "existed" but didn't have that and I would have agreed with you, just like when the relief line was being run by the City pre-2019. Sure, the "relief line" existed as a concept and was "advancing" - but it was that kind of project that was just never going to go anywhere real, sort of like the Waterfront East streetcar.. But in 2019, the Ontario Line came to the scene with actual capital behind it and urgency, and just like that, it's happening.

The same here. HFR has been hanging around for a decade as a glimmer in some federal employees eyes - Trudeau gave Alto some notional approval to continue that paper-pushing.. Carney seems to be putting it in real urgency now as a key part of his political platform. That means something.

We will have to see.
Click to expand...

The relief line goes back at least to the 1980s, with the line along Queen St going back a century. HSR only goes back about half that long. So, maybe when it is a century old idea it may open? Would be nice if it did open in full from Toronto to Quebec City before 2040. Would be nice if it was opened even faster; before 2035.

crs1026 said:
I suspect the steel focus is a little bit political, given the tariff saga has especially put Canadian steel mills at risk - but there may be good business sense in locking in material prices now. And even if no steel is produced or delivered in the immediate future, the commitment to buy Canadian may be compelling to our steel mill investors and creditors.... to the point where mills that might otherwise shut down are kept around until needed.

It's too soon to talk about rolling stock, and one must remember the contribution of the trains to the overall price tag is only so important. Rail enthusiasts habitually gravitate to thinking about the rolling stock, but the bigger price tag lies in the civil works and things like signalling. (Which by the way are both fascinating areas for railroading, and worth enthusiasts' attention).

I certainly hope that there will be a buy-canadian element to the rolling stock, although a designed-in-canada initiative would be unwise.... an "off the shelf" design that is already proven elsewhere would arrive sooner and eliminate a lot of risk. Right now there aren't that many railcar builder jobs at risk from tariffs etc so rolling stock isn't a political focus. And there may be benefit in buying off shore as a means of cementing a broader trade relationship with a new trading partner (as is hinted with fighter jets). A US led product is probably off the table altogether.

- Paul
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I feel it is not a little bit political, but a lot political where the steel comes from for the rails.

As far as the cars, they will be needing a maintenance facility, Someone, Feds or the province, will also likely announce SWO HSR before this project is open in full, so there is a good possibility it is built somewhere along the ALTO line. Either it then becomes the maintenance facility, or is a production plant for the next round of rolling stock needed for future extensions.
 
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hw621 said:
If this ever gets built, we need to thank Trump for it? How ironic...
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That is just up there with thanking Gavrilo Princip who assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria causing WW1, which was pivotal in Canada becoming Canada. Sometimes bad people doing bad things cause good things to happen. If I get my fast train, and he is the cause of it being built with Canadian supplies, then he did something good.
 
nfitz said:
I was a student when Premier Rae's government was talking about the Relief line to Shepherd. I'll be in my mid-60s at best by the time it even gets to Eglinton. So surely "old" is an underestimate.

I don't know why you'd think the Marxists and Communists are a threat. We've never even had a left-wing government in Canada, and now have the furthest right federal Liberal ministry that I remember - more Red Tory than anything else. I've never seen the need to be so woke about communism - let alone now; the Communist Party and Marxist-Leninist part finished 6th and 7th respectively in my riding this year. 12th and 13th federally!
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The same could be said about HSR - it's been churning for decades too.

The OL churned around as dreams scribbled on a napkin (more or less), with it boiling up to slightly more detailed work in the 1980's and 2010's, before finally becoming "real" in 2019. Today it's well under construction.

Alto was that until 2025 in a similar fashion. Decades of musing, the last 5 years have seen a kind of half-way false progression of work, and now in 2025 things seem to be getting real.
 
nfitz said:
I was a student when Premier Rae's government was talking about the Relief line to Shepherd. I'll be in my mid-60s at best by the time it even gets to Eglinton. So surely "old" is an underestimate.

I don't know why you'd think the Marxists and Communists are a threat. We've never even had a left-wing government in Canada, and now have the furthest right federal Liberal ministry that I remember - more Red Tory than anything else. I've never seen the need to be so woke about communism - let alone now; the Communist Party and Marxist-Leninist part finished 6th and 7th respectively in my riding this year. 12th and 13th federally!
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not referring to Marxism or Communism, but anyways I deleted it.
 
crs1026 said:
I’m not sure why you would bring lefty-righty politics into the discussion, considering that the biggest threat to the initiative is the potential for it to be cancelled if the current government is succeeded by a further-right one.
This is not the forum to be for or against “woke”.

- Paul
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Deleted
 
It would be interesting to see a win/lose analysis of similar projects and their regulatory hurdles - Texas, California, Brightline, perhaps NEC - did the added litigation and regulatory hurdles actually improve the project? Or did they simply enable doubters or people with competing interests to hold things up or actually erode the quality of the product?

It's not that I trust the government to get it right, but taking away the right to just get in the way is constructive. The fewer lawyers who get fed, the better imho.

As the article suggests, there is a balance, and it will be interesting to watch whether the application of this legislation gets it right.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
It would be interesting to see a win/lose analysis of similar projects and their regulatory hurdles - Texas, California, Brightline, perhaps NEC - did the added litigation and regulatory hurdles actually improve the project? Or did they simply enable doubters or people with competing interests to hold things up or actually erode the quality of the product?

It's not that I trust the government to get it right, but taking away the right to just get in the way is constructive. The fewer lawyers who get fed, the better imho.

As the article suggests, there is a balance, and it will be interesting to watch whether the application of this legislation gets it right.

- Paul
Click to expand...
Especially at the federal level, the environmental approval processes are ridiculously onerous. There is a reason the whole horsetrading about the 413 occurred with the Feds - completing a federal EA is almost a death sentence to a project.

Ford has done a good job of streamlining environmental approvals in Ontario and you can see the results in time-to-construction on his transit projects. These things matter and having political focus to cut through the bureaucracy is going to be critical to actually get something like ALTO done.
 
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