p_xavier
Active Member
Signs that the Montréal station will not be downtown, that's what I meant. We'll see in a few minutes. Ottawa station is really nowhere though.
|
|
|
Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Not sure I agree. Some previous studies did suggest a Montreal-Ottawa route all or partly north of the Ottawa River. And I think bringing on expertise from Europe, and several years of dealings with the existing railways, has prompted another look at leaving existing corridors in operation and building something that goes around them. If they are at the stage of leaking the route - north of the existing route and with Laval in phase 1 - they may actually be serious. The advantage is that current VIA services between the three major cities are not really impacted during the construction of phase 1, so that alternative modes don't become entrenched. But of course, this is Canada so bold new thinking may not pay off.
Old conceptual diagram:
New conceptual diagram:
crs1026
Superstar
Rather than split the $iscussion, at the risk of crosspost, I want to respond to a comment made in another thread to the effect of "Porter didn't locate at Union Station, and it hasn't hurt their business model".
It's certainly a true statement, but.... the point is to look to the future.
We are, after all, working hard to retrofit a transit based network to air travel, to supplement and hopefully replace the road based network that our major airports were built around. And in large measure we are recognizing that the network that exists to date to feed airports has reached capacity and has very little room for growth..... and has some huge gaps in connectivity to transit.
The dilemma for Alto is - do they locate their terminals in locations where the transit network is not optimal, and then have to push to build new links to those terminals... or do they build where the transit infrastructure is already most developed and amenable to feeding Alto?
By that standard, it's far better to bring Alto to transit than to bring transit to Alto. I can't see how Summerhill even if doable is superior to Union, and downtown Montreal (which is a little more complicated) has to offer a better hub placement than out in the burbs.
And Ottawa, which is probably now immovable, exemplifies for both airport and rail what happens if one doesn't build the terminal in the center of the urban universe.
So, while the alternatives are interesting, let's not overthink. Whatever it costs to squeeze new platforms into the most transit-dense and radial-centric hubs is wise investment.
- Paul
It's certainly a true statement, but.... the point is to look to the future.
We are, after all, working hard to retrofit a transit based network to air travel, to supplement and hopefully replace the road based network that our major airports were built around. And in large measure we are recognizing that the network that exists to date to feed airports has reached capacity and has very little room for growth..... and has some huge gaps in connectivity to transit.
The dilemma for Alto is - do they locate their terminals in locations where the transit network is not optimal, and then have to push to build new links to those terminals... or do they build where the transit infrastructure is already most developed and amenable to feeding Alto?
By that standard, it's far better to bring Alto to transit than to bring transit to Alto. I can't see how Summerhill even if doable is superior to Union, and downtown Montreal (which is a little more complicated) has to offer a better hub placement than out in the burbs.
And Ottawa, which is probably now immovable, exemplifies for both airport and rail what happens if one doesn't build the terminal in the center of the urban universe.
So, while the alternatives are interesting, let's not overthink. Whatever it costs to squeeze new platforms into the most transit-dense and radial-centric hubs is wise investment.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
Sorry if I was unclear. I was not suggesting building in a way that encroaches existing operating corridors. I was referring to repurposing marginal or abandoned corridors. North of the Ottawa falls into the repurposed category in a good part.
I'm not dug in on any Montreal-Ottawa routing, other than to bemoan the folly of landbanking the M&O route for decades only to drop that idea. Maybe the analysis says a different route will work better. If so, great...but where were we all those years ?
My point was just, in the end, options that require acquisition of the most new land and force new impacts on places where rail never had impacts before, will fare less well when we get to cost and impact discussions. And the wisdom of those earlier route may have been informed by the same considerations of topography that the engineers now have to consider, so tjose old routes may present some opportunities that can be leveraged.
- Paul
kEiThZ
Superstar
4 stops from Rideau Centre is "really nowhere"?
Sure bud.
You can tell who uses transit and who doesn't with pronouncements like this.
p_xavier
Active Member
Côte de liesse in Montréal is in the middle of nowhere and it's similar number of stops. Sure bud.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Really sucks for Ottawa if they skip Dorval. That connection would have substantially reduced air traffic out of Ottawa. Both connecting Ottawa-Montreal flights and simply direct flights out of Ottawa. But I will concede that there's probably some business traffic to Laval and the possibility for split service that terminates in Montreal and a branch that continues from Laval eastward.
Last edited:
kEiThZ
Superstar
Like I said. The difference between a transit user and a driver.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Re Dorval: Agreed. Although ALTO never said they were building a station there, we just assumed they would. On the other hand, ALTO to Gare Centrale then REM to the airport will be about the same time, circa 100 minutes, as the current VIA service.
Ottawa Union: It's not a bad location at all, especially for Montreal trips, as the Montreal-oriented population (of Ottawa) tends to live in the east end of the city. There's also now a direct bus from the south end and airport.
Landbanking the corridor they now seem to want to use: Yes, getting rid of that was a poor move. However, it has not been substantially infringed on, and there are very few obstacles and curves that can't be mitigated. But the whole question of how they might use the existing or previous corridors on the Quebec side is wide open. Unless we've misinterpreted the leaked info.
Ottawa Union: It's not a bad location at all, especially for Montreal trips, as the Montreal-oriented population (of Ottawa) tends to live in the east end of the city. There's also now a direct bus from the south end and airport.
Landbanking the corridor they now seem to want to use: Yes, getting rid of that was a poor move. However, it has not been substantially infringed on, and there are very few obstacles and curves that can't be mitigated. But the whole question of how they might use the existing or previous corridors on the Quebec side is wide open. Unless we've misinterpreted the leaked info.
Mihairokov
Senior Member
Why disparage other users here?
Ottawa Station, when compared to either Union or Gare Centrale, is nowhere in the sense that nothing is within walking distance to it. The LRT helps but you're still a few stops away from either a mall or downtown, whereas with the other two you're able to walk to plenty of services with incredible ease. The step down that Ottawa Station is from Union and Gare Centrale is quite stark, both in the services at the station itself (see: a small cafe and nothing else) as well as the services surrounding it (nothing).
What I will say is that the LRT in Ottawa stopping at 11PM on Sunday is really unfortunate given that i've had a number of VIA trains arrive after that time and then having to taxi or uber from the Station because there's no other option. This problem does not exist in Toronto or Montreal.
Northern Light
Superstar
The federal press release is here:
-MO-10-MINO_GENERIC_WEB_CARDS_TEMPLATE_NEWS-RELEASE-TITLE_EN.jpg)
www.canada.ca
From the above:
*** skipping the quotes ***
Here's the landing page for the Alto public consutlations:
www.altotrain.ca
Full speed ahead: Ottawa–Montreal chosen as starting point for Alto High-Speed Rail
The Alto High-Speed Rail project will be one of Canada’s largest infrastructure investments in decades. Building the first high-speed rail network in Canada will turbocharge our economy, create well-paying jobs, support Canadian businesses and industry while delivering to Canadians the...
From the above:
*** skipping the quotes ***
Here's the landing page for the Alto public consutlations:
Public Consultation
The train network will offer frequent, reliable and faster service thanks to modern, accessible and environmentally-friendly trains.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Not too many details yet, but it sounds like they will be coming (very) soon.The federal press release is here:
Full speed ahead: Ottawa–Montreal chosen as starting point for Alto High-Speed Rail
The Alto High-Speed Rail project will be one of Canada’s largest infrastructure investments in decades. Building the first high-speed rail network in Canada will turbocharge our economy, create well-paying jobs, support Canadian businesses and industry while delivering to Canadians the...
From the above:
View attachment 702312
View attachment 702313
*** skipping the quotes ***
View attachment 702316
Here's the landing page for the Alto public consutlations:
Public Consultation
The train network will offer frequent, reliable and faster service thanks to modern, accessible and environmentally-friendly trains.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
The OC site indicates that the overnight version of bus 105 serves the stop on Tremblay road, by means of a U turn. So you can get to Rideau or the SE transitway every half hour. Granted, not great at all, and maybe they'll improve it some day.
Bojaxs
Senior Member
If they are going to go down this route, will they design the junction in Laval to allow some trains to bypass Montréal towards Quebec City?
I know with HS2 in England, even though the northern leg has been cancelled, they're still constructing the junction just outside Birmingham to allow for London trains to "eventually" bypass the city and onwards to Crewe/ Manchester. It's an effort to "future proof" the line.
Can we expect this type of forward thinking on this project?
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Given the ridership, and the numbers traveling between Ontario and Quebec City, I wouldn't think it would be worthwhile. More likely I think would be a transfer in Laval.
The consultations include Vankleek Hill and Saint-Eustache, which are roughly along the route I sketched out, but not Lachute, which actually has the railway running through it. And I don't know what to make of consultations in both Madoc and Stirling, but not Tweed. Maybe they just drew circles so they are not too far from anyone in the general vicinity.