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Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

Interesting how some are defending a religion that openly condones homesexual acts and considers them to be punishible by death, but will jump on the Ford bashing train because he simply doesn't the parade.

I assume you mean "condemns." I would be just as outraged if a gay Mayor refused to go to an important Muslim event. The mayor is elected to represent and serve all people in a city, regardless of personal views. Notice that Calgary's Muslim mayor was Grand Marshal of their Pride Parade this year. Not all Muslims want to harm gay people and I have seen no evidence that the Muslim students at this school do, or that these prayer meetings are being used to promote hate speech against the gay community.
 
... And about the Catholic School Board's policy towards LGBT issue. Not sure how they deal with this topic but people have to remember that this is the Catholic School Board. It's a religious institution, or use to be and so of course they would frown upon homosexuality.

Not sure why you would expect them to accept something their faith doesn't condone. Just send your kid to another school.


perhaps it's because the public purse pays CSB, and anti-gay bigotry/hate speech is against the law
 
You really do have to question the motives or sanity of people who come to Canada unwilling to change their dyed-in-the-wool beliefs, be they religious or cultural.

Why? This is what people have been doing since the first settlers came to this area of the world in the 1600s.

Why was it ok up til now, but apparently now a problem for Mulism kids who want to pray on a friday?

They ghettoize themselves as surely as they become ghettoized. It's not even an issue of radicalisation. No way to build a nation, imo.

These are kids going to public school. Public school is the most assimilative tool we have in the social policy toolkit to integrate people into the fabric of Canadian society. It's the complete opposite of ghettoization.

Not accomodating the most simplest of religious practices is no way to build a nation because not only is that not how we've approached pretty much every other religious group up til now, but also because that is what leads to self-ghettoization.
 
Not too far from the school where all this began, one of the most prominent Muslim leaders on the planet is building a huge museum that will be a major asset to Torontonians of all religious affiliations.

Being built by The Aga Khan the head of the Ismaili sect. He is a Swiss-born playboy and very western. Most Sunni and Shia Muslims do not consider Ismaili's to be Muslim.
 
Reading the comments on the Toronto Sun website I came across this very interesting post by a Mississauga school teacher of 15 years. This is a first hand account behind the trenches. He/she makes the distinction between secular Muslims and traditional Muslims and notes that increasingly his/her students are traditional Muslims. The picture he/she paints is not a pretty one. A teacher in a common-law relationship was run out of school by a backlash from Muslim parents and students when he revealed his partner was having a baby. He did not receive any support from the school board. Jewish teachers are afraid to reveal their religion to the students for fear of a backlash. Antisemitic remarks by students go unpunished.


Posted by "alittleworried" on the Toronto Sun website

I'm so glad to hear Tarek Fatah is healthy and active in public life again.

I do agree that this is a symptom of white guilt. We of the mixed Anglo/European heritage are so afraid of being labelled racist if we criticize the practices of others. I'm over that now, as criticizing a belief system is merited. All belief systems are open to debate. If you believe it then you should be able to justify it. I left the Catholic Church because I didn't like the unequal treatment of women and men, especially in the Orders (Nuns' servitude compared with Priests' privileges). It is not critical of race. If we want to be completely accurate, Arab peoples (where Islam began, but certainly not limited to now) are Caucasian. Since Sharia was proposed in 2005, I've been saying "Where are the feminists?". How can we accept treatment of women under Sharia when we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Thankfully it didn't pass, but I have seen a lot as a teacher in Mississauga for 15+ years, and the issue of gender equity is getting worse. Most of my students are Muslim and new arrivals to Canada, and while some are secular Muslims, more and more are increasingly traditional. I hear boys tell girls that they can't play sports, because they are girls, boys (some, not all) will refuse to sit in table groups with girls. When a boy had a disagreement with a girl, he screamed at her "There is room for you in the hellfire." (I recalled when he said this, that Mohamed proclaimed to women, most of the room in hell is reserved for women because they are gossips and not thankful - but I can't remember if it is in the Koran or the Hadith). I was informed by at least half of my class that the Japanese earthquake was sent by Allah because the Japanese aren't Muslim. I teach grade 2 and part of the curriculum is Celebrations around the world, so we learn about Ramadan, Diwali, Chinese New Year, but when we got to Easter, students (some, not all) refused to participate. One of my students said to me this year "You Christians, you'll eat anything. You don't even know what you are eating. You'll even eat a pig." I didn't inform him that I am not a Christian, but an atheist (It is better to be viewed as "One who has gone astray" than one who is a Kaffir).

Don't even get me started on anti-Semitism. The boys use "Jew" as a insult akin to "idiot", but some go further and tell me about how the Jews are awful people. I always respond to these comments and tell the children they are wrong. Other teachers are surprised I will do this, not because they are not in agreement with me, but because they are afraid of a backlash from parents if they dispute what the parents are teaching their children. When I sought advice from the principal over an especially extreme anti-Semitic student, he told me his father had expressed the same views to him, but the principal didn't call the father on it. It has truly worried me that this 7 year old boy, who has a generous and loving nature, has become more and more vocal and virulent in his expression of hatred towards Jews.

Interestingly, my female Muslim students are completely a-political. They are hard working, inclusive, and free from the social conflicts that affect the boys. I don't know if it is a greater maturity on the girls part or a gentler nature, or different indoctrination in the home.

Just as I don't let the kids know I am an atheist,(even though I have been asked many times what religion I am and I don't answer, I just tell them it is personal, because I'm not going to lie - I took heat from my family because I left the Church and my mother still believes I am the only person in the world who doesn't believe in God...so if I wasn't going to call myself a Christian for my mother, I won't do it for my students) there are 2 Jewish teachers at the school who won't let their religion be identified.

Some may think this is cowardice on our part, but we like the school we teach in. In a similar school, with a similar religious diversification, a male teacher, whom had been living common law for years was about to have a child with his common law wife. I don't know how the students came to know this, but perhaps the teacher was naive enough to think in a socially liberal country, you can be candid about such things. The Muslim community protested the teacher's employment, sent threatening letters to him, and his Muslim students became so abusive, he could no longer effectively teach. According to a friend at my school, who knows him, he reported that he felt the principal did nothing to support him. He chose to leave the school to end the controversy.

In case you think I am anti-Muslim, I am not. I was born, raised and still live in Mississauga. Multi-culturalism is as natural to me as mother's milk. I went to UTM, where religion was not an issue, but if I had to count, I certainly had more Muslim friends than Christian friends. I learned about the great contributions of the Persians from my many Iraqi friends who came to Canada before the take over in 1979. They rejected arranged marriages, embraced education and expected full gender equity.

I don't see the same opportunities for the Muslim girls I teach, and it is not just me. My lunch room supervisor (a lady from the community who looks after the students while the teachers have lunch) is an observant Muslim, and wears the Hajib, who came to Canada from Palestine in 1969. She also has seen a change in her 22 years at our school and thinks so many new arrivals are radicals. She told me they think too much about Islam and not enough about being happy to be Canadians.

BTW, I have no problem with Muslim kids praying. We allow the same opportunity in our school.
When the kids come back from summer vacation they are in the habit of doing the noon day prayer, and we provide room for them to do so and for years I supervised this (on my own lunch time) without an Iman. It was short (about 10 minutes), Now I don't know if the kids skipped a lot to make sure they got recess time or if the real prayer is as short, but when I hear that at Valley Park it is 30-40 minutes, I question is it more than prayer or is a Sermon as well? To me that is a huge difference. One is giving time for the children to pray, the other is listening to a sermon that may or not be within our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and our Educational Act. I know most Mosques start and end their prayers with a short recitation "Give me victory over those who have betrayed (Jews) and those whom have gone astray (Christians). I would like to know if the students at Valley Park recite this or not. However since the teachers and principal are not allowed in to supervise we do not know.
 
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Interesting how some are defending a religion that openly condones homesexual acts and considers them to be punishible by death, but will jump on the Ford bashing train because he simply doesn't the parade.
I don't think that's true ... I made comments that were harsh about prejudice within the Muslim community; I think the difference here, is not one person is standing up and supporting such prejudice - while in the Ford thread, there are those who think prejudice is acceptable.

Besides ... simply because a single preacher has said that gays should be executed; doesn't taint an entire religion.

There are real issues here ... and I'm sure if the school board decided students to attend on Sundays, that Christians might have some issues as well.
 
Your wish is that what should happen exactly?

Since you seem to be more knowledgable (or have better references), please elaborate re Shia/Sunni.
My point was to establish that religious change happens and is possible. The exact changes I'd like to see are besides the point.

Some major Shia/Sunnis differences that cause them to call each other blasphemers, heretics or worse, from what I can remember:
- Twelver Shia belief of the hidden Mahdi
- Elevation of Imams to almost prophet status; infallibility of Imam; veneration of icons of Imams
- Sunni doctrine has ossified pretty much, whereas Shia legal tradition of interpretation from first principles and precedents is still alive

What's interesting is that proponents of each school of thought/interpretation can point at something in the religious texts and make a case for their beliefs.
 
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Being built by The Aga Khan the head of the Ismaili sect. He is a Swiss-born playboy and very western. Most Sunni and Shia Muslims do not consider Ismaili's to be Muslim.

As far as I know, this prayer group is non-denominational. I would imagine there are Sunnis, Ismailis, and other Shia Muslims coming together to worship. If so, score for Canadian pluralism!

That was a really great letter. He/she has a very reasoned view on the situation and raises valid concerns.

I have a problem with the use of the term "white guilt" here. From my perspective, on the part of those supporting accomodation here, it's more a frustration with seeing history repeat itself. When Catholics first started settling in Ontario en masse in the 19th Century, there was a huge uproar from the Protestant establishment. People thought the Catholic Church was a mind control apparatus and that Catholics were a threat to Protestant free thought. Violent sectarian conflict ensued. Eventually, Catholics assimilated, and you'd have a very hard time today trying to differentiate between the two communities. When Jews began immigrating here in the 20th Century, there was again a huge uproar. There was exclusion, mockery, and violence. People said, among other things, that Jews would never assimilate - that Judaism was incompatible with Canadian society. Eventually, they too assimilated and contributed greatly to Canadian public life. To see the same arguments (with minor variations) trotted out to justify knee-jerk anti-Muslim sentiment is troubling. We should know better. We should know that religions, all religions, change over time to adjust to life here. We should know that Muslims are people just like the rest of us with their own opinions, their own beliefs, and their own capacity to think for themselves. We should know that they are defined by more than just their religion, and that part of that identity is their attachment to Canada, Canadian values, and Canadian culture - an attachment we can foster by removing barriers that might make some think it is impossible to be both a good Canadian citizen and a practising Muslim.
 
Change is a two-way street. You really do have to question the motives or sanity of people who come to Canada unwilling to change their dyed-in-the-wool beliefs, be they religious or cultural. They ghettoize themselves as surely as they become ghettoized. It's not even an issue of radicalisation. No way to build a nation, imo.

I think new immigrants to a large degree have always tried to maintain their beliefs. Some have come for a new start and to embrace a new life entirely, but many are just coming to leave trouble behind or for economic opportunities rather than to reinvent themselves. There have always been cultural enclaves for "people they can relate to" and "people who share similar values". Belief systems that have developed in a person over their lifetime are hard to change. Change is found in the Canadian born generations and that is why it is important for us to have those people fully integrated into public schools and for them to have equal economic opportunities. Kids of immigrants are expected by their parents to have adhere to the same value system as their parents. Those values include who one should marry, how religious one should be, focus on money over other concerns, appropriateness of clothing, age equality, etc. The stress of meeting those expectations and an evaluation of how life decisions made by ones parents versus ones self affected their lives in terms of happiness and success will be evaluated over a lifetime and the parenting style of each subsequent generation is less likely to be as traditional as the one before. The extent to which a person is integrated into the mainstream will effect a person most on how radical or mainstream their value systems are. If we force the parents of these kids to choose an option that will expose their kids less to mainstream thought then we are making it more likely that their generation will also be less mainstream in their views.
 
My two and only comments on this topic is to say that, one, Canadians in general and the political establishment are gullible fools to allow the slow encroachment of Islam into Canadian society - any other paternalistic, misogynistic and globally ruthless way of thinking would have been stamped out if it weren't religious-based.

Second, those in power or influence over determining public policy concerning what we may refer to as multiculturalism-based accommodation need to understand that Islam is not the same as other religions today, be it Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.
 
First of all, many of these kids are born in Canada. Not all Muslims are immigrants. Secondly, these kids aren't sequestering themselves. They attend public school alongside children from many other religious backgrounds (none of whom had a problem with this!).

I've never denied this. My points are not aimed at all muslims, obviously. They are aimed at those muslims, or those of any religion for that matter, who would advocate that it is their 'right' to bring their religion into the public school system... no matter how 'convenient' it may be or how else it can be justified. It is just wrong.

Third, it is legitimate to bring up the Islamophobia issue when a discussion which could have just been about religious accomodation in schools is widened to include mention of terrorists, Sharia law, the married life of Muhammad, etc.

The claim of Islamaphobia is a strawman here. We are talking about the fundamental idea that religion - meaning ALL religion - should not be in the school system. Same rules for everyone... to which:

Finally, the rules are, in a way, unintentionally exclusive. Christian and Jewish students, exclusively, get their traditional days of worship off school. Muslim students do not. No one is saying they should. To advocate shaking up the long-held school week is not reasonable. To recognize that Friday is an important day of worship for Muslim students, and to allow them a little bit of space and time during school hours to save them skipping class and heading to mosque seems pretty reasonable to me. Again, the students are happy with this, their parents are happy with this, the teachers, the school admin, and the board are all happy about this. The only people unhappy about this is a fringe Hindu nationalist group that has known anti-Muslim (and Islamophobic) tendencies who decided to make a big deal of all this.

No allowances. The only fair system is to apply the same one for all, with the understanding that individuals will make accommodations for the system and not the other way around. Despite what some people here believe religion is just as much a reflection of culture and society as it is religious texts. Over time a religion will adjust and adapt to its surroundings, and it will here in Canada.


Why? This is what people have been doing since the first settlers came to this area of the world in the 1600s.

Why was it ok up til now, but apparently now a problem for Mulism kids who want to pray on a friday?

a) Are you really suggesting we guide ourselves by what happened in the 1600s? Did the idea of a division between church and state even exist then? Even still, wasn't it the Puritans themselves who established the idea of separating state and religion within the early colonies so that people of all religions could settle and live/work together yet still feel safe and secure in their own religious practises? I'm sure accommodations had to be made, no?

b) Many people who came to North America did so because they wanted to leave the old ways behind and be part of something new. Yes, there are those who simply fled for their lives or livelihoods but should we be compromising our values for those who are here through necessity rather than by choice? I don't think so.

c) The issue is not with religion. It's with religion in a public school system where it doesn't belong.



These are kids going to public school. Public school is the most assimilative tool we have in the social policy toolkit to integrate people into the fabric of Canadian society. It's the complete opposite of ghettoization.

I agree, but it is the curriculum that assimilates. Creating ethnic/religious cliques within the system is not helpful to this at all.

Not accomodating the most simplest of religious practices is no way to build a nation because not only is that not how we've approached pretty much every other religious group up til now, but also because that is what leads to self-ghettoization.

... but changes and accommodations are being made! We no longer recite the Lord's Prayer in the public school system, for example. It is no longer acceptable to preach or proselytize in any way within the school system... and public-funded faith-based religion was soundly rejected in Ontario by people of all groups, religions and ethnic communities. It is probably only a matter of time before the the situation with the Catholic school board is changed.

Accommodations and changes are happening but happily they point to a direction which takes religion out of the system rather than inviting it in. All groups have had to accommodate themselves to this, including the muslims.
 
Religion should have no place outside of the home and place of worship. It has absolutely no place in government, and the idea of religious services being held in publicly owned property should upset every last one of you.
 

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