Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

[adeel]

If the Imams in Ontario are anything like the Imams in England captured on this hidden cam in the video below - they should not be allowed anywhere near a public school much less inside to give sermons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ0rsUofpQM

How do we know that the Imams in our schools are not providing lessons in hate and violence? From what I read the sermons are monitored by parents. This doesn't give me any confidence that the Imams are not preaching hate. This past Sunday at the MCC a popular local Imam stated in a speech that gays should be executed if caught in the act! Are children being given the same message in school?

TDSB says that it is an issue of accommodation - fine - they can easily accommodate them by letting them leave school and attend a mosque but under no circumstances should Imams have been allowed on school property to conduct sermons.

The problem is this has been going on for some time now and if we were to take this away from them there is no telling what kind of backlash there will be, it could set off a Jihad!

I just read this in the Toronto Sun: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/07/tdsb-favouritism-hurts-schools

"Jim Spyopoulos, superintendent of education at the Toronto and District School Board (TDSB), says there’s a responsibility to accommodate students or ethnic groups who have “prayer needs†— but not to monitor what goes on during prayer sessions, as that would be violating religious freedom"

This confirms my fears. The TDSB has NOT been monitoring the sermons because that would be "violating religious freedom" so there is just no way for us to know if the Imams invited into the school are like the Imams caught on hidden cam in England (see my post above) or the local Imam who proclaimed at an event at the MCC (on Pride day!) that homosexuals caught in the act "should be executed" . How do we know that the children are not being radicalized?

How do you know the children are being radicalized? Other than your own prejudice, do you have any reason to believe so?

In any event, If I was doing PR for this parent group, Id offer the Ministry/School the Imams CV/resume and have him meet with the administration (this may have been done already). I'd go on to suggest that the Imam also have their sermon notes vetted ahead of time, but gee whiz, who knows if the imam would evens stick to his notes...

 

[adeel]

Exactly. Now that we have established that this happens (i.e. some stuff is not widely accepted, and other stuff ruffles feathers), my wish (and nfitz's earlier on, if I understood correctly) is that it should happen more and at a faster pace.

I'm not just singling out Islam. While we're at it, the Catholic school board should cut out their anti-LGBT bigotry.



You seem to have a Good Gracious Me sense of what religion is. (Goodness Gracious Me: Sikhism, Hinduism, I'm pretty sure there was similar one on Islam about not drinking but I can't find it)

What you said in the quote is not true. There's a lot of stuff in Shia doctrine that's considered blasphemy by Sunnis. Some Shia offshoots (e.g. Ismailis) aren't even considered Muslims by some Sunnis and some Shias.

Your wish is that what should happen exactly?

Since you seem to be more knowledgable (or have better references), please elaborate re Shia/Sunni. However, I concede your point re Ismailis.

I propose the following as a reasonable compromise. Since Islam doesn't require intermediaries, stop calling an imam to the school. Let a student lead the prayers. This way, it's an activity that entirely student run, it'll be up to the students to do everything within the allotted time, and there's no non-board certified authority figure teaching/preaching in the school. Any objections?

Im not an authority, but yeah, it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[tkip]

This is pure and simple Islamophobia. I can't believe how many people bit into this without so much as a thought.

We make all sorts of concessions for all sorts of groups - religious and not religious.

Some Baptists take their kids out of sex ed; some of the hardcore ones have their kids removed from class when videos were on; evangelical Christians have a morning group prayer right after announcements; Jehovas wouldn't let their kids birthdays be announced or celebrated in class; but when it is Muslims...ooooooooOOOOOOHHHHH! What's next, we gonna force the Jewish kids to eat bacon and the Mormon kids to drink caffeinated pop?

What's more radicalizing to a member of minority religious group - accommodating one's religion within the constructs of a modern society (which we seem to be able to do for almost everyone), or proving the radicals right that being Muslim is incompatible with participation in everyday Canadian society by being so inflexible to only one group's religion so that they are forced out of school if they want to be able to practice their beliefs?

If people are truly worried about radicalization, then wouldn't they want these kids to remain part of the most normalizing assimilative social tool - public school?

The problem is white, liberal guilt where people are bending over backwards in a effort not to offend. And frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

 

[adeel]

This is pure and simple Islamophobia. I can't believe how many people bit into this without so much as a thought.

We make all sorts of concessions for all sorts of groups - religious and not religious.

Some Baptists take their kids out of sex ed; some of the hardcore ones have their kids removed from class when videos were on; evangelical Christians have a morning group prayer right after announcements; Jehovas wouldn't let their kids birthdays be announced or celebrated in class; but when it is Muslims...ooooooooOOOOOOHHHHH! What's next, we gonna force the Jewish kids to eat bacon and the Mormon kids to drink caffeinated pop?

What's more radicalizing to a member of minority religious group - accommodating one's religion within the constructs of a modern society (which we seem to be able to do for almost everyone), or proving the radicals right that being Muslim is incompatible with participation in everyday Canadian society by being so inflexible to only one group's religion so that they are forced out of school if they want to be able to practice their beliefs?

If people are truly worried about radicalization, then wouldn't they want these kids to remain part of the most normalizing assimilative social tool - public school?

Someone who gets it.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think if a "community group" wants to use a public building (outside of school hours), they are allowed to.

If there is no empty space in the school available then I would agree that is isn't the school boards responsibility to create space for special interest groups to have a room of their own. However, if there is an available empty space and making that space available to a special interest group leads to more students missing less public school education which is non-secular in nature why wouldn't you want that? The alternative is that more of these students would be in private religious schools which is far less inclusive, far more religion focused, and would do less to moderate any fundamentalist views that exist in the community. I have far more issue with black schools than this as that completely separates a group in the education system, whereas this allows a group to be in the same classes as everyone else. I think the goal should be to have every Canadian child getting a non-religious, non-racial curriculum in a public school alongside students from all walks of life. On curriculum I am rather inflexible, but this isn't a religious curriculum, it is an accommodation so that these same students aren't missing more class to go to a site further away or being lost from public education altogether.

But I do not agree with taking time out of the school day to pray.

But that is the religion. People get off school or out of classes for a myriad of things and it is the responsibility of the student to catch up on what they miss. Vacations, funerals, weddings, field trips, etc... a lot of people miss classes and need to catch up. Unlike an accommodation of not having school on Saturdays, Sundays, and Christmas there isn't a request to change the schedule of school (which would be impractical), this is to assist in missing less school.

 

[EnviroTO]

Some Baptists take their kids out of sex ed; some of the hardcore ones have their kids removed from class when videos were on; evangelical Christians have a morning group prayer right after announcements; Jehovas wouldn't let their kids birthdays be announced or celebrated in class.

I have much more with issue with people being able to opt out of curriculum or subjecting people who are not religious or of a different religion to a religious exercise in the classroom. Can't say I have a problem with people who want to keep their birthday private.

 

[Peepers]

How do you know the children are being radicalized? Other than your own prejudice, do you have any reason to believe so?

MY PREJUDICE?


Take a look at what is happening in our schools (from the Toronto Sun story)

"And for young women who begin menstruating, said Fatah, strict Islamic traditions dictate they would be singled out and sent to the back of the room while the prayer session is taking place.

“It’s a fearful time for a young woman to get her first period, and right at that time you have this man (the Imam) telling them they are unclean,†said Fatah. “That should not happen in Canada.â€

This probably seems "normal" to you but to me this is BACKWARDS and has NO PLACE IN CANADA

In MY Canada women are treated EQUAL to men.

In MY Canada being Gay is not a crime punishable by death.

If this makes me "prejudiced" that is a label I will proudly wear!

 

[adeel]

MY PREJUDICE?

"And for young women who begin menstruating, said Fatah, strict Islamic traditions dictate they would be singled out and sent to the back of the room while the prayer session is taking place.

“It’s a fearful time for a young woman to get her first period, and right at that time you have this man (the Imam) telling them they are unclean,” said Fatah. “That should not happen in Canada.”

This probably seems "normal" to you but to me this is BACKWARDS and has NO PLACE IN CANADA

If I read the article correct (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/07/public-school-prayer-sessions-criticized), that was a hypothetical rather than something that actually happened. So yeah, prejudice.

Please, dont assume you know me or my opinions.

 

[EnviroTO]

The problem is white, liberal guilt where people are bending over backwards in a effort not to offend. And frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

I don't think so. If this was a curriculum discussion there would be a point to it all. Public education should teach scientific truth and historic truth and to any degree a religion or special interest group can't handle it I would say that is too bad for them and you must pass the curriculum to graduate. Black schools are an awful idea. Not receiving failing grades when a student has clearly not put in the effort and has not learned the required curriculum is a bad idea. Enabling students to miss less class makes sense.

 

[EnviroTO]

In MY Canada women are treated EQUAL to men.

I think you have closed your eyes because the largest religion in Canada who in this province is allowed to run a separate school system doesn't ordain women. If they were asking to treat women unfairly I would be against it but if a woman chooses to follow the rules of a religion on her own accord that is her right. I have a hard time believing that in a school cafeteria the plan is that an Imam is going to inspect the pantyliners of the female population. Do you really believe that is what is going to happen? The fear of that happening seems much like the conservative stance against gay marriage where somehow it is a slippery slope and the next thing you know people are marrying farm animals.

In MY Canada being Gay is not a crime punishable by death.

Yet the party in power would gladly remove the right to gay marriage and the largest religion in Canada who in this province is allowed to run a separate school system doesn't marry gays. Is your concern that a gay person would walk into the school cafeteria and get killed? Killing gays is against the laws of Canada. I just don't see the request being to change that. We aren't accommodating a request to kill gays here.

 

[Peepers]

If I read the article correct (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/07/public-school-prayer-sessions-criticized), that was a hypothetical rather than something that actually happened. So yeah, prejudice.

Please, dont assume you know me or my opinions.

Is it not true that under strict Islamic rules it is considered not proper for menstruating girls to Salat (prayer) or observe Saum (fast) during their period of menses because they are not considered "clean"

YES OR NO?

I think you know the answer is YES. This is NOT a hypothetical!

I consider this practice to be backward, call me "prejudice" all you like.

 

[adeel]

The answer to your most of your question is yes. BUT (and this is probably getting into the TMI territory for most), there are simillar kinds of rules (though not as strict) about mens ejaculation also being impure, so this is less about trying to single out women and more about the manner in which one is to prepare themselves for prayers. To be quite honest, there are different schools of thought on the matter.

http://woodturtle.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/only-women-bleed-menstruation-in-islam/

This is the most unbiased take from a muslim woman on the subject I've ever read, and there is good discussion in the comments below the article.

 

[Peepers]

I think you have closed your eyes because the largest religion in Canada who in this province is allowed to run a separate school system doesn't ordain women. If they were asking to treat women unfairly I would be against it but if a woman chooses to follow the rules of a religion on her own accord that is her right. I have a hard time believing that in a school cafeteria the plan is that an Imam is going to inspect the pantyliners of the female population. Do you really believe that is what is going to happen? The fear of that happening seems much like the conservative stance against gay marriage where somehow it is a slippery slope and the next thing you know people are marrying farm animals.



Yet the party in power would gladly remove the right to gay marriage and the largest religion in Canada who in this province is allowed to run a separate school system doesn't marry gays. Is your concern that a gay person would walk into the school cafeteria and get killed? Killing gays is against the laws of Canada. I just don't see the request being to change that. We aren't accommodating a request to kill gays here.

To your first point I readily admit that the Catholic Church is is discriminatory. We should have done away with the separate school board long ago. No religion has any place in our schools.

As to your second point. The party in power is simply pandering to intolerant groups in order to get votes. For example look what happened in the last Federal election. The Conservatives won their majority thanks in large part to the intolerant groups of people in the 905 region who were encouraged to "vote their values" values that include the belief that being gay is a crime punishable by death (ironically by a MP who is widely considered to be gay). Of course it is against the law to kill someone in Canada for being gay but apparently it is not against the law to express the belief that "gays should be executed if caught in the act" as was expressed by a popular local Imam last Sunday (pride day). You are correct that we are not "accommodating a request to kill gays here" but we ARE allowing people to freely express this wish as if it was a right, simply because this is what the Quran calls for and they believe in the Quran. Is this what students at these schools are being taught in these sermons?

 

[EnviroTO]

I'm pretty sure their lower regions are not clean at that time. That is the whole reason pantyliners and tampons were invented. As mentioned before the issue is that openness to change historic religious texts to reflect advancements in science, thought, etc. (e.g. refrigeration of meats, hygienic products, etc.) is limited. If a real son of god or prophet showed up today nobody would believe that he was real. How does a religious text get updated? Who has the power? There is bad stuff in the old testament as well. Despite the fact Italy is progressive they still find a way to coexist with the Vatican which is stuck in its old ways.

 

[Peepers]

The answer to your most of your question is yes. .

Thank you! I rest my case.