Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

[nfitz]

The obvious bigger issue here is #1.

No ... I'd say the big issue is number 2. I'm fine with using public facilities for worship; but excluding people based on their gender ... and their ... good grief ... their menstrual cycle is barbaric and bigoted.

Do you exclude based on skin colour and sexual preference as well? What do you do with transgendered?

It's not acceptable in a civilized society. If your religion requires this ... then either fix your religion ... or stay out public spaces.

There's no reason that the religion can't change ... it's changed enough times in the past.

46% of Canadians (13,070,000 as of 2008) baptized as Catholics[/I]

I'm calling you on this one. This would make the population of Canada only 28-million in 2008. There is something wrong with those numbers.

 

[gabe]

If you really want to separate church and state, start funding Muslim (and other religious) schools under the same rules and guidelines as Catholic schools. Most muslims cant afford to send their children to private muslim schools bc the fees are so much higher due to lack of similar tax funding. Or, if that is unacceptable, remove the double standard allowing Catholic school funding. I personally dont have a preference either way, as long as all religious groups get the same treatment.

Or better yet move to a Muslim country, try teaching Christianity in school in a Muslim country and see how long you last. I don't want my tax dollars going towards any religious school especially a religion with such stone age views as Islam. Catholics make up a large portion of the country, the religious education in Catholic schools is nothing like it was 50 years ago. You want to learn about God do it on Sundays!

 

[toraerach]

If it's not hurting their grades, it's a reasonable accomodation that keeps them at school on Fridays and keeps them in the TDSB where they're more likely to come into contact with dissenting ideas (for example, the idea that men and women should pray together) that will drive change. I'm hesitant to tell anyone how to practise their religious beliefs, but perhaps the solution to the gender issue should be to just remove the mandatory separation. Let the students themselves decide where they want to pray - most of them will probably just do what they're already doing anyways.

As for Catholic schools - Catholics are the largest religious denomination in Canada, mostly due to the fact that Quebec is overwhelmingly, nominally Catholic. In Ontario (as well as other provinces that have/had denominational schools), a large Catholic population pressured the government for years for separate schooling because the public schools were essentially Protestant schools. That's no longer true (although, I believe, at least one government-funded Protestant school still exists), so the justification for separate schools no longer exists. Other provinces (Quebec, Newfoundland) have already done away with the separate schools.

An aim of schooling should be to expose children to diversity so that they can function properly in a very diverse society. That means getting people from multiple backgrounds into the public system, which means accomodating and respecting their differences. It is far preferable to have some Muslim students go say their prayers at school once a week and maintain strong personal and intellectual connections with the rest of the community than to have them sequestered off to their own schools, or, as some have ridiculously suggested, their own countries (both of which hurt non-Muslim students just as much as the Muslim ones).

 

[Automation Gallery]

With also over than 10 million christians (other than catholics) in Canada ...what ever happened to the lords prayer in schools.

 

[nfitz]

Or better yet move to a Muslim country, try teaching Christianity in school in a Muslim country and see how long you last.

This shouldn't be about what they do in other countries. We're not allowed to discriminate against Minority X because in Xrovia they discriminate against Y.

I don't want my tax dollars going towards any religious school especially a religion with such stone age views as Islam.

I don't want my tax dollars going to any religious school especially a religion with such stone age views as Catholic.

You can't make an issue about this and ignore the elephant in the room. Data about how predominant Catholics are in Canada are irrelevant. Many, if not most of the Catholics are in Quebec ... and they banned the funding of Catholic schools in Quebec years ago! Why Ontario hasn't done the same mystifies me.

 

[Ak2809]

You can't make an issue about this and ignore the elephant in the room. Data about how predominant Catholics are in Canada are irrelevant. Many, if not most of the Catholics are in Quebec ... and they banned the funding of Catholic schools in Quebec years ago! Why Ontario hasn't done the same mystifies me.

Ontario never experienced the wholesale rejection of religion that Quebec did, so the Catholic schools continued to be funded. I think, however, that Ontarians prefer the status quo above all else. Too many people would be upset if they were to go, while a great deal of people were upset with John Tory's idea of funding faith based schooling.

If it's not hurting their grades, it's a reasonable accomodation that keeps them at school on Fridays and keeps them in the TDSB where they're more likely to come into contact with dissenting ideas

No accomodation for religion in the public sector. If these students choose to skip school then they have to deal with the consequences of doing so. When you choose to live in a country that espouses seperation of church and state you should be prepared to accept the rules of that society.

 

[toraerach]

Ontario never experienced the wholesale rejection of religion that Quebec did, so the Catholic schools continued to be funded. I think, however, that Ontarians prefer the status quo above all else. Too many people would be upset if they were to go, while a great deal of people were upset with John Tory's idea of funding faith based schooling.

I think the majority of Ontarians would want to abolish the separate school system. It's just a matter of finding the political will to do so. The PCs won't do it due to their religious base. The Liberals won't do it because of their historical Catholic base. The NDP won't do it because of the Catholic school unions. The status quo is just easier than wasting the political capital one would need to exhaust in order to do it - especially as the hundreds of thousands of current Catholic school children are shuffled around.

No accomodation for religion in the public sector. If these students choose to skip school then they have to deal with the consequences of doing so. When you choose to live in a country that espouses seperation of church and state you should be prepared to accept the rules of that society.

Canada's never been quite so strict in its separation of church and state as, say, the US or France. The fully funded Catholic schools are one example, as is the Lord's Prayer in the legislature, the general acceptance of religious garb in public institutions, etc. Historically, we've aspired to place mroe value on inclusion, pluralism, and freedom of religion as opposed to staunch secularism. And it's not like the Imam is on the school board's payroll or anything, or that it's compulsory for all students or all Muslim students.

Schools must be an open place of dialogue and cross-cultural exposure if we want our kids to grow up as respectful and tolerant people. Given the recent push on the part of students to get GSAs in Catholic schools, and the lack of complaints from non-Muslim students here, it looks like our kids are already a hell of a lot more tolerant and comfortable around difference than their elders. Bravo to them!

 

[adeel]

Thats because...It has the largest number of followers of a religion in Canada with 46% of Canadians (13,070,000 as of 2008) baptized as Catholics
..I believe they have some pull..dont you think.

That really only explains current status rather than why they are deserving of special accomodation.

No ... I'd say the big issue is number 2. I'm fine with using public facilities for worship; but excluding people based on their gender ... and their ... good grief ... their menstrual cycle is barbaric and bigoted.

Do you exclude based on skin colour and sexual preference as well? What do you do with transgendered?

It's not acceptable in a civilized society. If your religion requires this ... then either fix your religion ... or stay out public spaces.

There's no reason that the religion can't change ... it's changed enough times in the past.

I'm calling you on this one. This would make the population of Canada only 28-million in 2008. There is something wrong with those numbers.

Islam is admittedly and in many ways, quite rigid. There are a number of rules (either explicitly stated in the Quran as primary authority) or derived from the actions/sayings/teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (because not every single situation is covered in the Quran).

So what this means is that, if a situation is covered by either source, it teaches the rest of the people how to behave or act. Menstruation is something that is indeed covered, based on a hadith (which is translated as instruction of the Prophet, as relayed by another). The one covering menstruation goes as follows:

The Messenger of Allah, sal Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, said to Fatimah bint Abu Habish, “Do not pray during your period. After it has ended, perform ghusl and pray.†(Related by Bukhari and Muslim).

So this is taken as, menstruating females do not pray. The girls who are being 'excluded' arent in reality, they are simply following the teachings as best as they can.

As it relates to positional locations, its a mixture of tradition and hadiths. Some might argue that its a modesty thing (in a very broad sense, guys are pigs, and would stare at the behind of a woman bent over in front of him, praying or not).

So please, dont hate on the idea because of the way prayers have been organized. I cant speak specifically for any girl who has to sit out prayers because she is menstruating, or has to pray at the back of the room, but I feel she is most likely not concerned about these issues, so I hope that you arent either.

You cant just change religion (or not Islam anyways).

Or better yet move to a Muslim country, try teaching Christianity in school in a Muslim country and see how long you last. I don't want my tax dollars going towards any religious school especially a religion with such stone age views as Islam. Catholics make up a large portion of the country, the religious education in Catholic schools is nothing like it was 50 years ago. You want to learn about God do it on Sundays!

As mentioned below, what others do in another country really shouldnt have bearing on Canada. I'd be the first to admit alot of them as backwards. Doesn't mean you do the reverse here.

If it's not hurting their grades, it's a reasonable accomodation that keeps them at school on Fridays and keeps them in the TDSB where they're more likely to come into contact with dissenting ideas (for example, the idea that men and women should pray together) that will drive change. I'm hesitant to tell anyone how to practise their religious beliefs, but perhaps the solution to the gender issue should be to just remove the mandatory separation. Let the students themselves decide where they want to pray - most of them will probably just do what they're already doing anyways.

As for Catholic schools - Catholics are the largest religious denomination in Canada, mostly due to the fact that Quebec is overwhelmingly, nominally Catholic. In Ontario (as well as other provinces that have/had denominational schools), a large Catholic population pressured the government for years for separate schooling because the public schools were essentially Protestant schools. That's no longer true (although, I believe, at least one government-funded Protestant school still exists), so the justification for separate schools no longer exists. Other provinces (Quebec, Newfoundland) have already done away with the separate schools.

An aim of schooling should be to expose children to diversity so that they can function properly in a very diverse society. That means getting people from multiple backgrounds into the public system, which means accomodating and respecting their differences. It is far preferable to have some Muslim students go say their prayers at school once a week and maintain strong personal and intellectual connections with the rest of the community than to have them sequestered off to their own schools, or, as some have ridiculously suggested, their own countries (both of which hurt non-Muslim students just as much as the Muslim ones).

Good post. I'll just state that the idea of giving choice, while it may seem practical, likely wouldnt fly with the traditional thoughts of the childrens parents. Islam is pretty set in how things are done. That I will not deny. There are reasons that this is the way it is. Maybe you accept them, maybe you dont.

With also over than 10 million christians (other than catholics) in Canada ...what ever happened to the lords prayer in schools.

Before my time. If I was to guess, I would say that non-Christians didnt like the idea of being forcibly subjected to a prayer of a religion they do not subscribe to. An excerpt from wikipedia: The Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that the regulation infringed religious freedom because schools could use only the Lord's Prayer rather than a more inclusive approach. The exemption provision actually stigmatized children and coerced them into a religious observance which was offensive to them.

That is probably why it was abandoned, which I think is completely different from what is happening here. No one is forcing the children to take part in Islamic prayers.

This shouldn't be about what they do in other countries. We're not allowed to discriminate against Minority X because in Xrovia they discriminate against Y.

I don't want my tax dollars going to any religious school especially a religion with such stone age views as Catholic.

You can't make an issue about this and ignore the elephant in the room. Data about how predominant Catholics are in Canada are irrelevant. Many, if not most of the Catholics are in Quebec ... and they banned the funding of Catholic schools in Quebec years ago! Why Ontario hasn't done the same mystifies me.

Good first point. I also dont understand how it is that Catholic schools still get special funding in Ontario. While I'd personally prefer no funding of religious schools, I think things need to be applied consistently.

 

[adeel]

Ontario never experienced the wholesale rejection of religion that Quebec did, so the Catholic schools continued to be funded. I think, however, that Ontarians prefer the status quo above all else. Too many people would be upset if they were to go, while a great deal of people were upset with John Tory's idea of funding faith based schooling.

No accomodation for religion in the public sector. If these students choose to skip school then they have to deal with the consequences of doing so. When you choose to live in a country that espouses seperation of church and state you should be prepared to accept the rules of that society.

I was too young to vote in that election so I wasnt following the issues, but it reeks of hypocrisy to me that people were upset at the idea of funding faith based schooling when Catholics were already getting that advantage.

Re your 2nd paragraph, I disagree. The students are responsible for getting parents permission and making up missed work. If you have the ability to make things easier on them (and dont forget the non-muslim students: Friday afternoon disruptions where half the class trickles in late are most likely not conducive to learning for them either), why not, as long as its not costing much, and the same advantages are made available to all?

I think the majority of Ontarians would want to abolish the separate school system. It's just a matter of finding the political will to do so. The PCs won't do it due to their religious base. The Liberals won't do it because of their historical Catholic base. The NDP won't do it because of the Catholic school unions. The status quo is just easier than wasting the political capital one would need to exhaust in order to do it - especially as the hundreds of thousands of current Catholic school children are shuffled around.

Canada's never been quite so strict in its separation of church and state as, say, the US or France. The fully funded Catholic schools are one example, as is the Lord's Prayer in the legislature, the general acceptance of religious garb in public institutions, etc. Historically, we've aspired to place mroe value on inclusion, pluralism, and freedom of religion as opposed to staunch secularism. And it's not like the Imam is on the school board's payroll or anything, or that it's compulsory for all students or all Muslim students.

Schools must be an open place of dialogue and cross-cultural exposure if we want our kids to grow up as respectful and tolerant people. Given the recent push on the part of students to get GSAs in Catholic schools, and the lack of complaints from non-Muslim students here, it looks like our kids are already a hell of a lot more tolerant and comfortable around difference than their elders. Bravo to them!

Another good post, and I think your bang on about finding motiviation to get things changed.

 

[Ak2809]

Historically, we've aspired to place mroe value on inclusion, pluralism, and freedom of religion as opposed to staunch secularism.

Historically, Canada has struggled with religion and inclusivity. Things like our funded Catholic school board are as the result of Quebec's Catholics voting en bloc in order to keep from being assimilated. Historically English Canada has wanted nothing more than to assimilate every other group and maintain its status as the dominate group. Official multiculturalism, biculturalism, etc is a recent policy that came in with Trudeau.

And it's not like the Imam is on the school board's payroll or anything, or that it's compulsory for all students or all Muslim students.

Why should this matter? Publicly owned property is being used for religious purposes. This goes against the TDSB's secular values.

 

[Northern Light]

OK.....let's straighten some stuff out here...

First off...........their is a constitutional obligation to pay for catholic schools; and only those, based on the compromises that led to Confederation (the BNA Act 1867)

As noted....those laws were made not so much to protect religion as language.

At the time; all English Schools were protestant.

Most French schools were Catholic.

****

Now for those who wish to know, Quebec, Newfoundland and others, specifically got Constitutional amendments (approval req'd federal approval and the province in question only); to abolish this system and merge all boards as non-religious English and French.

To the best of my knowledge, Ontario is the last large province to have this division.

There was a clear consensus in Quebec; and in Newfoundland a referendum to make the change.

*******

Anyways.............

On the merits of this particular issue.............

A) I would prefer to abolish the Catholic system

B) I have no time for 'accommodating' religion at the expense of social rule.

I could care less what people think, do on their own time, prefer, wear, blah blah.

But....we should not have to overhaul the way social institutions operate for any group, minority or not.

 

[nfitz]

So please, dont hate on the idea because of the way prayers have been organized. I cant speak specifically for any girl who has to sit out prayers because she is menstruating, or has to pray at the back of the room, but I feel she is most likely not concerned about these issues, so I hope that you arent either.

Why not be concerned. The way it's done is prejudicial and wrong. The rules were made 1000+ years ago at a different time, for a different reason. Just because Muhammad said to do something a certain way, in a different place, in a different time, is no reason to do it today. If he was around today, he'd may think everyone was crazy for following something in such a way completely out of context.

You cant just change religion (or not Islam anyways).

Why not? Look at how the different branches of the Abrahamic religions have evolved since they diverged 2-3,000 years ago. They'll all evolve further over the next 2,000 years.

Ultimately, if the priest class (or whatever the parallel is), forces stuff that is too far out of synch with society, someone will nail something to the door ... and a group will split off with different thoughts. We've seen this time and time again across all branches of the Abrahamic religions.

 

[adeel]

OK.....let's straighten some stuff out here...

First off...........their is a constitutional obligation to pay for catholic schools; and only those, based on the compromises that led to Confederation (the BNA Act 1867)

As noted....those laws were made not so much to protect religion as language.

At the time; all English Schools were protestant.

Most French schools were Catholic.

****

Now for those who wish to know, Quebec, Newfoundland and others, specifically got Constitutional amendments (approval req'd federal approval and the province in question only); to abolish this system and merge all boards as non-religious English and French.

To the best of my knowledge, Ontario is the last large province to have this division.

There was a clear consensus in Quebec; and in Newfoundland a referendum to make the change.

*******

Anyways.............

On the merits of this particular issue.............

A) I would prefer to abolish the Catholic system

B) I have no time for 'accommodating' religion at the expense of social rule.

I could care less what people think, do on their own time, prefer, wear, blah blah.

But....we should not have to overhaul the way social institutions operate for any group, minority or not.

Interesting background...had no idea.

Why not be concerned. The way it's done is prejudicial and wrong. The rules were made 1000+ years ago at a different time, for a different reason. Just because Muhammad said to do something a certain way, in a different place, in a different time, is no reason to do it today. If he was around today, he'd may think everyone was crazy for following something in such a way completely out of context.

Why not? Look at how the different branches of the Abrahamic religions have evolved since they diverged 2-3,000 years ago. They'll all evolve further over the next 2,000 years.

Ultimately, if the priest class (or whatever the parallel is), forces stuff that is too far out of synch with society, someone will nail something to the door ... and a group will split off with different thoughts. We've seen this time and time again across all branches of the Abrahamic religions.

Some of what your saying is opinion. Yes, Islam is old school. I dont think that makes it wrong. The view I've always personally take of Islam is that it is very preventative:

1. No drinking or drugs because enough of it can lead to getting drunk/high which can (and often does) lead to lewd and unreligious behaviour
2. No intermingling (especially of unmarrieds) as it can lead to talking and flirting which can lead to pre-marital sex, unwanted pregnancies etc (yes a big stretch i know)

Separation of the sexes in my mind isnt about male dominance (although alot of idiot men give the rest of us Muslims bad names through mistreatment and perversion of the religion, so alot of others look at it this way) its about prevention. 99% of the time prevention is looked upon positively. Why not in religion? Like the old saying about an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Unless you subscribe to a certain religious belief, grow up with it, you cant really understand it. Certain aspects of religion dont always make sense. In alot of ways, the point is to show belief and have faith in a higher power who knows what is best. You try your best to live by the example set for you by those that came before you.

Its fine if you dont subscribe to that, but thats just how it is.

Also, while change may be true among other Abrahamic religions (esp Christianity, with all of its various sects), I doubt you can list any significant changes that have occurred in Islam over time.

 

[urbandreamer]

All these issues being discussed have been happening for decades, and still happen today, in the real Canada. Places like Stratford, Milverton, Elmira....

Ever heard of the Amish and Conservative Mennonites?

Yes, some of them do attend public schools, and yes, they do have special separate places to pray, separation of sexes during gym, etc.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't have any issue with a group being able to get a room in a public facility to carry out whatever they want as long as (a) the room was available, (b) the laws of the country are followed, and (c) the rules of school board are followed. The reality is that many things people believe in are based on tradition and things there is no solid evidence of. If people want to believe Americans didn't walk on the moon, fine. If people want to believe some guy magically made water turn to fermented grape juice, fine. If people want to believe an invisible and immeasurable being of which there is only one in the universe spoke to a guy, fine. As long as public money isn't paying for people to be taught religion and conspiracy theories in public schools I am good with that. Wear whatever you want, go nude if you like, believe whatever you want.

I find the need to split male and female washrooms outdated. How screwed up are we that we can't trust the other half of the population to share the same room when going to the washroom, but the other half the population it is completely OK even though you don't know them? I have to accept that I'm not going to convince most people that the idea of splitting washrooms by sex is an illogical way of thinking.

If someone goes into the cafeteria and isn't disruptive and gets kicked out because (a) they are a girl, (b) they are menstruating, or (c) not born into a specific population that is where I would have an issue because clearly the public school is meant to be public and should have the laws of the country applied to it and not the rules of a religion. However if that group wants to spell out who their target audience is without it being enforced I have no issue with it. If people want to have a Chinese Students Association then great, but if non-Chinese can't join then I have a problem with it. I only accept that religions can create rules which are discriminatory when those rules are applied inside a church, synagogue, mosque, etc because it is property owned by that group and like any private property the owning group can decide who comes on the property and who does not and the rules that are being applied on their private property are not new rules created in spite of current laws, they are rules that have existed before the current laws of non discrimination existed.

People believe in things that aren't logical and it is something we all need to accept. I will go buy a lottery ticket sometimes, but logically that is money very poorly spent. I admit that sometimes I am self-conscious with my appearance in a group of people who I don't know, don't need to know, and have nothing to gain by impressing and that also makes no sense. Human beings aren't fully evolved yet and some cling to beliefs from long ago. Many of those beliefs made a lot of sense in the time they were created and brought order and law to populations, protected people from eating meat that in times prior to refrigeration would have been more dangerous than other meats, made people less selfish in their actions (although with the threat of consequence maybe not so much in reality), etc. As long as we keep teaching people to think, action and reaction, math, science, etc and keep people with different beliefs alongside each other in peace I think our population will evolve to be more sensible and that is a good thing. I think having a large group of Canadians not grow up alongside other Canadians in harmony is a greater risk to our future than accepting that a group might believe in some things that others do not. It is only when a belief is put into action against the rights of those who do not share that belief that we need to be concerned and make sure measurable rights aren't being taken away from one group to solve an immeasurable negative impact to another group.