Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

[ssk]

I never said slavery is obligatory. The horrible thing I'm referring to is that it's allowed. The people I have talked too don't like this. It was an example of a result of people critically examining their scripture.

 

[adeel]

Why do we have to endure the repeated explanations of what Islam is and is not - these Islamists are always explaining their theology.............either to extol its' superiority or to explain the parts of the religion that we non Islamic people find abhorrent, distasteful or just plain outrageous.

I remember that Osama put the SLAM in Islam and that the mullahs refer to Christians and Jews (as well as Hindu's) as the descendants of apes and pigs.......................and we barely hear the Islamists renounce this filth..............understandably, since the modus is to kill those who dissent.

NO SPECIAL ACCOMMODATIONS FOR ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP including Feminists

Sigh...Im explaining so you understand our perspective and dont condemn us every time you find something different about islamic beliefs

Those mullahs are idiots if there are ones out there who said things like that

I never said slavery is obligatory. The horrible thing I'm referring to is that it's allowed. The people I have talked too don't like this. It was an example of a result of people critically examining their scripture.

I cant defend or have the background to understand every single item that makes up the faith. There is no doubt that much of the scripture reflects a different time. That something is permitted doesnt mean it is widely accepted and that something is forbidden does not mean that it doesnt ruffle feathers. But The quran is considered the direct word of God as passed down through his Messenger, and to embrace Islam is to embrace the word and commands of God in a manner of speaking.

 

[nfitz]

It's okay with me, and isn't that what really matters?

No, what really matters is me ... and ... well it's okay with me too.

 

[imperfect]

Sigh...Im explaining so you understand our perspective and dont condemn us every time you find something different about islamic beliefs

Those mullahs are idiots if there are ones out there who said things like that



I cant defend or have the background to understand every single item that makes up the faith. There is no doubt that much of the scripture reflects a different time. That something is permitted doesnt mean it is widely accepted and that something is forbidden does not mean that it doesnt ruffle feathers. But The quran is considered the direct word of God as passed down through his Messenger, and to embrace Islam is to embrace the word and commands of God in a manner of speaking.

There you go again:Im explaining so you understand our perspective and dont condemn us every time you find something different about islamic beliefs

Why do you so adamantly deduce that I (we) need explanations and that we do not understand ?
I, personally understand the perspective of Islam and thoroughly reject it. The condemnations will continue as long as we are subjected to the abhorrent mullahs, their fatwas, the humiliations inflicted on women in the name of religion and the constant importuning that we westerners (Christians and Jews) will come around to appreciate Islam once we understand.

We understand and reject Islam, the Quran as the direct word of God and much of the piffle written above.

Practice your religion in your temples - desist from lecturing us on your elevated and superior ways - treat your women equally - remember that religion has no place in the public realm in a secular state/society.

If this is not to your liking then maybe Saudi Arabia is a good place for you.

 

[nfitz]

That they arent following a certain rule doesnt mean all of a sudden its something about the religion has changed.

So you are telling me that all sects of Islam follow the same rules? Sunni and Shiah? What about Sufi?

If Islam never changed, there would be only one sect ... not dozens.

 

[adeel]

There you go again:Im explaining so you understand our perspective and dont condemn us every time you find something different about islamic beliefs

Why do you so adamantly deduce that I (we) need explanations and that we do not understand ?
I, personally understand the perspective of Islam and thoroughly reject it. The condemnations will continue as long as we are subjected to the abhorrent mullahs, their fatwas, the humiliations inflicted on women in the name of religion and the constant importuning that we westerners (Christians and Jews) will come around to appreciate Islam once we understand.

We understand and reject Islam, the Quran as the direct word of God and much of the piffle written above.

Practice your religion in your temples - desist from lecturing us on your elevated and superior ways - treat your women equally - remember that religion has no place in the public realm in a secular state/society.

If this is not to your liking then maybe Saudi Arabia is a good place for you.

Mostly I try to elaborate because you come to conclusion that in my opinion are unfounded.

The rest of your post is mostly garbage that Im ignoring, as most of it is highly off topic.

So you are telling me that all sects of Islam follow the same rules? Sunni and Shiah? What about Sufi?

If Islam never changed, there would be only one sect ... not dozens.

There are a number of shared basics that I believe apply consistently. The primary differences between Sunni and Shia were political about leadership and how to move forward after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and not based in spiritual differences. For praticing muslims there arent really any practical differences about how to adhere to the faith.

Its not as though Shia Muslims think they are allowed to drink because they are Shia for example.

 

[Ak2809]

I have absolutely no problem with accommodations being made in the form of allowing students to switch their classes around, or make up for missed work. The problem lies in that public property is being used for religious purposes.

 

[Dan416]

I think if a "community group" wants to use a public building (outside of school hours), they are allowed to. But I do not agree with taking time out of the school day to pray. And I also agree with the poster who said we don't need any long-winded explanation of Islamic tenets to come to this conclusion. School is for school. I simply don't believe a school should have to accommodate parents who want to force their children to be obedient Muslims.

 

[Peepers]

If the Imams in Ontario are anything like the Imams in England captured on this hidden cam in the video below - they should not be allowed anywhere near a public school much less inside to give sermons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ0rsUofpQM

How do we know that the Imams in our schools are not providing lessons in hate and violence? From what I read the sermons are monitored by parents. This doesn't give me any confidence that the Imams are not preaching hate. This past Sunday at the MCC a popular local Imam stated in a speech that gays should be executed if caught in the act! Are children being given the same message in school?

TDSB says that it is an issue of accommodation - fine - they can easily accommodate them by letting them leave school and attend a mosque but under no circumstances should Imams have been allowed on school property to conduct sermons.

The problem is this has been going on for some time now and if we were to take this away from them there is no telling what kind of backlash there will be, it could set off a Jihad!

 

[Peepers]

I just read this in the Toronto Sun: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/07/tdsb-favouritism-hurts-schools

"Jim Spyopoulos, superintendent of education at the Toronto and District School Board (TDSB), says there’s a responsibility to accommodate students or ethnic groups who have “prayer needs” — but not to monitor what goes on during prayer sessions, as that would be violating religious freedom"

This confirms my fears. The TDSB has NOT been monitoring the sermons because that would be "violating religious freedom" so there is just no way for us to know if the Imams invited into the school are like the Imams caught on hidden cam in England (see my post above) or the local Imam who proclaimed at an event at the MCC (on Pride day!) that homosexuals caught in the act "should be executed" . How do we know that the children are not being radicalized?

 

[jeff316]

This is pure and simple Islamophobia. I can't believe how many people bit into this without so much as a thought.

We make all sorts of concessions for all sorts of groups - religious and not religious.

Some Baptists take their kids out of sex ed; some of the hardcore ones have their kids removed from class when videos were on; evangelical Christians have a morning group prayer right after announcements; Jehovas wouldn't let their kids birthdays be announced or celebrated in class; but when it is Muslims...ooooooooOOOOOOHHHHH! What's next, we gonna force the Jewish kids to eat bacon and the Mormon kids to drink caffeinated pop?

What's more radicalizing to a member of minority religious group - accommodating one's religion within the constructs of a modern society (which we seem to be able to do for almost everyone), or proving the radicals right that being Muslim is incompatible with participation in everyday Canadian society by being so inflexible to only one group's religion so that they are forced out of school if they want to be able to practice their beliefs?

If people are truly worried about radicalization, then wouldn't they want these kids to remain part of the most normalizing assimilative social tool - public school?

 

[ssk]

I cant defend or have the background to understand every single item that makes up the faith. There is no doubt that much of the scripture reflects a different time. That something is permitted doesnt mean it is widely accepted and that something is forbidden does not mean that it doesnt ruffle feathers. But The quran is considered the direct word of God as passed down through his Messenger, and to embrace Islam is to embrace the word and commands of God in a manner of speaking.

Exactly. Now that we have established that this happens (i.e. some stuff is not widely accepted, and other stuff ruffles feathers), my wish (and nfitz's earlier on, if I understood correctly) is that it should happen more and at a faster pace.

I'm not just singling out Islam. While we're at it, the Catholic school board should cut out their anti-LGBT bigotry.

There are a number of shared basics that I believe apply consistently. The primary differences between Sunni and Shia were political about leadership and how to move forward after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and not based in spiritual differences. For praticing muslims there arent really any practical differences about how to adhere to the faith.

Its not as though Shia Muslims think they are allowed to drink because they are Shia for example.

You seem to have a Good Gracious Me sense of what religion is. (Goodness Gracious Me: Sikhism, Hinduism, I'm pretty sure there was similar one on Islam about not drinking but I can't find it)

What you said in the quote is not true. There's a lot of stuff in Shia doctrine that's considered blasphemy by Sunnis. Some Shia offshoots (e.g. Ismailis) aren't even considered Muslims by some Sunnis and some Shias.

 

[adeel]

I have absolutely no problem with accommodations being made in the form of allowing students to switch their classes around, or make up for missed work. The problem lies in that public property is being used for religious purposes.

This is a fair and reasonable request. Could be the TDSB being overly PC about accomodation, or maybe trying their best to minimize disruptions for all of the students. I dont feel like the TDSB is obligated to provide the prayer space. The way I understand it, the parents group made a request, and the request was approved. Im not sure what would have happened if the request was denied. Maybe nothing, probably a lawsuit.

I think if a "community group" wants to use a public building (outside of school hours), they are allowed to. But I do not agree with taking time out of the school day to pray. And I also agree with the poster who said we don't need any long-winded explanation of Islamic tenets to come to this conclusion. School is for school. I simply don't believe a school should have to accommodate parents who want to force their children to be obedient Muslims.

Correct me if im wrong, but the vibe im getting is that not only do you not approve of school usage for prayers, but also that the students that were previously arranging to miss class and go off site to pray and make up missed work doesnt work for you either. Isnt that going too far? As above, I respect the prayer space argument, but you risk further alienation by going as far as penalizing or forbidding taking time to pray out of a students school day.

Also, ill make a general point: Why so many negative assumptions and conclusions? Because parents try to make things easier and safer for their children they are all of a sudden forcing their children into Islam? Because there are some crappy imams who preach in a way inconsistent with actual Islamic teachings, every single one is a radical?

When did we become so quick to stereotype and prejudge?

 

[tkip]

Am I the only one that thinks this is absolutely absurd?

What kind of precedence is this setting, removing children from their school/learning time to they can learn about religion?

And for those that want to defend this, they are already separating the boys from the girls. How backwards is this?

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/...at-school-necessary-for-muslim-students-board

As a atheist, I see nothing wrong with a quiet, quick prayer moment. Some of you are probably shocked that I would support prayer in schools.

This was common when I went to school As for separating the boys from the girls? Not sure what this means. Religion is very important to many people. Most people believe in something. So it matters. Whether this should be practiced in a public school is debatable but as I already said, this was common as a child and no one was outraged.

Now, if certain religious groups want special treatment, then I might see an issue or conflict. And about the Catholic School Board's policy towards LGBT issue. Not sure how they deal with this topic but people have to remember that this is the Catholic School Board. It's a religious institution, or use to be and so of course they would frown upon homosexuality.

Not sure why you would expect them to accept something their faith doesn't condone. Just send your kid to another school.

 

[ssk]

This is a fair and reasonable request. Could be the TDSB being overly PC about accomodation, or maybe trying their best to minimize disruptions for all of the students. I dont feel like the TDSB is obligated to provide the prayer space. The way I understand it, the parents group made a request, and the request was approved. Im not sure what would have happened if the request was denied. Maybe nothing, probably a lawsuit.

I propose the following as a reasonable compromise. Since Islam doesn't require intermediaries, stop calling an imam to the school. Let a student lead the prayers. This way, it's an entirely student run voluntary activity, it'll be up to the students to do everything within the allotted time, there's no non-board certified authority figure teaching/preaching in the school, and it doesn't set a precedent where the school would have to invite a religious leader from every religion or sect that demands it. Any objections?