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News Roundup for April 18, 2024
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Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

I've often thought that had NATO and the UN ignored the plight in Afghanistan, that the same folks pushing for involvement in Darfur would now be pushing for us to intervene in Afghanistan.

We must remember to separate our disdain for George Bush II from what is otherwise an admirable mission. In the history of the Canadian Armed Forces the mission to Afghanistan will be seen as equally positive and contributive as our missions to the Balkans, Cyprus, the Egypt-Israel border and even Rwanda. These missions were not always immediately successful (in the longterm Canada's involvement in Rwanda and the story thereof may help to prevent it elsewhere, though perhaps not Darfur), but Canada's motivation was always good and true.
 
afransen said:
"Now, if the military budget was in the hundreds of billions I might have a different opinion."

I hope before then. For Canada to spend $100 billion per year on the military would challenge the USA's status as one of the highest military spending countries in the world.
Click to expand...

Exactly--it was an intentional dig at the overspending on the military south of the border. While I would expect the U.S. budget to be well above other nations no nation needs to budget $500 billion on defence.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I've often thought that had NATO and the UN ignored the plight in Afghanistan, that the same folks pushing for involvement in Darfur would now be pushing for us to intervene in Afghanistan.

We must remember to separate our disdain for George Bush II from what is otherwise an admirable mission. In the history of the Canadian Armed Forces the mission to Afghanistan will be seen as equally positive and contributive as our missions to the Balkans, Cyprus, the Egypt-Israel border and even Rwanda. These missions were not always immediately successful (in the longterm Canada's involvement in Rwanda and the story thereof may help to prevent it elsewhere, though perhaps not Darfur), but Canada's motivation was always good and true.
Click to expand...


The interesting thing is that some of the people who push for military involvement in these areas end up opposing such action because the reality of these situations rarely meets up with their theoretical expectations of what will happen.

Keeping waring factions apart in Darfur will call for direct military action, which means shooting, and that means soldiers, combatants and civilians may be killed. This is the case in Afghanistan presently. It's not to hard to find a vocal opposition to Canadian troops in that country referring to those soldiers as part of an imperial force, or something to that effect. Some time back, many of the same people were lambasting the government for not doing something to help people trapped in this war zone.

Some people can never be satisfied.
 
It's hard to imagine this current batch of Canadians supporting our involvement in the Second World War. Who cares if Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito/Tojo are bent on global or regional domination and genocide. Today's Canadians would argue that such affairs were none of our business and that to get involved would be simply toadying up to the Imperialists in the UK and USA.

If we did get involved, imagine the Canadian public reaction when they learn that 45,300 soldiers have been killed in action. Canadians would have been demanding our withdrawl right after the Dieppe Raid's tally of 950 dead, 2,340 captured or wounded.
 
Admiral Beez said:
It's hard to imagine this current batch of Canadians supporting our involvement in the Second World War. Who cares if Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito/Tojo are bent on global or regional domination and genocide. Today's Canadians would argue that such affairs were none of our business and that to get involved would be simply toadying up to the Imperialists in the UK and USA.

If we did get involved, imagine the Canadian public reaction when they learn that 45,300 soldiers have been killed in action. Canadians would have been demanding our withdrawl right after the Dieppe Raid's tally of 950 dead, 2,340 captured or wounded.
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Nothing is more annoying than people trying to compare the Afghanistan war with World War II. The two aren't even remotely alike in terms of threat, scale, or necessary response. To say that they're even remotely similar cheapens both. We don't know what kind of response we'd see to something on the scale of WWII because nothing like that has happened in 70 years.
 
This is not a noble mission in Afghanistan.
Our Military spending is out of wack. We have spent over one billion dollars extra this year only to see the Afghan Government this week annouce that they are putting into law that women cannot dance in public, this is the government you are willing to sacrifice Canadian soldiers for?
"We are fighting terrorism over there so we don't have to fight them here in Canada"......these terrorists couldn't even find Canada on a map!
Why don't you war supporters go enlist?
We fight for the traditional political leadership tribe in Afghanistan (proxy war) and to the person on this forum who wrote that they Knew who these terrorists were, go inform our miltary because they admit publically that they don't.
For all the bravado war mission support you all appear to have for this current Nato adventure, I suspect in the end nothing will change until the Nato gets the hell out of Afghanistan and the Afghans deal with their internal problems as well as deal with the military dictatorship in Pakistan.
 
I keep reading about the "tribes" of Afghanistan. Here in North America we don't have tribes per say but instead we have races from all over the world who have settled here, so our tribes are racial and we also have "tribal" problems as a result. We sure like to frame concepts to max out their complexity but in the end people just have to learn to accept differences and get over their own personal superiority complexes. To suggest that even the genders in our society are treated fairly is ridiculous......War will not make this a better world, understanding differeneces will. We have to "sell" the idea that acceptance makes a better environment and not that elections are the panacea of all problems a society may experience!
 
So you have no issue with fundamentalist religious beliefs that are forced into place at the end of a gun? It's that pressure that brings about these sexists laws. However, there are long-standing local cultural traditions to deal with as well. Those types of laws were certainly more extreme and more well-entrenched before the arrival of NATO troops.

You appear to be arguing that a country should have the right to determine its own cultural boundaries free of any outside interference. But you don't like that idea only because NATO troops are there.

Is that to mean that you would support the idea of an Afghan government passing a similar - if not even more restrictive laws - as being just fine only when there would be no NATO troops on the ground?
 
So both of you argue for an essential hands-off attitude towards these places where "tribal" attitudes dominate.

However, when these tribal attitudes become conflicts which result in laws and actions that are sexists, homophobic and xenophobic, and result in murder and even mass murder (which has a very, very long history), remember to keep your otherwise liberal attitudes in check. There is nothing to do for those who are dying. They are just victims of those rightful tribal cultures and beliefs.
 
jade_lee said:
This is not a noble mission in Afghanistan.
Our Military spending is out of wack. We have spent over one billion dollars extra this year only to see the Afghan Government this week annouce that they are putting into law that women cannot dance in public, this is the government you are willing to sacrifice Canadian soldiers for?
"We are fighting terrorism over there so we don't have to fight them here in Canada"......these terrorists couldn't even find Canada on a map!
Why don't you war supporters go enlist?
We fight for the traditional political leadership tribe in Afghanistan (proxy war) and to the person on this forum who wrote that they Knew who these terrorists were, go inform our miltary because they admit publically that they don't.
For all the bravado war mission support you all appear to have for this current Nato adventure, I suspect in the end nothing will change until the Nato gets the hell out of Afghanistan and the Afghans deal with their internal problems as well as deal with the military dictatorship in Pakistan.
Click to expand...

I'm curious why you posted another emotional broadside long after the fact without responding meaningfully to any of the comments that responded to your original emotional broadside?

Regarding "knowing who the terrorists were"--there are more than Afghan tribes living there--there are organized terrorist groups who have already attacked Europe and America and who have already threatened Canada. Where does the military not publicly admit knowing who the terrorists are because they certainly appear to do so here:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121433777212_154
Canada's JTF-2 to hunt al Qaeda in Afghanistan

From The Independent Panel on Canada’s Future Role in Afghanistan:
http://www.independent-panel-independant.ca/pdf/Afghan_Report_web_e.pdf
"Canada has sent soldiers, diplomats and aid workers to Afghanistan as part
of an international response to the threat to peace and security inherent in Al
Qaeda’s terrorist attacks."

And, how can the Afghans--a fractured tribal nation--deal with the terrorists, let alone with the military dictatorship in Pakistan?!?
 
Emotional broadside? Is that what you call opinions you disagree with? Only today I read in a Canadian newspaper how the woman of Afghanistan are still living in fear of showing their bodies or faces as it is outlawed there! Yet I recall all that bravado (emotional broadsiding) about how the troops were fighting on behalf of the oppression of women there. Are you kidding me? Our troops can fight those carrying weapons in Afghanistan but the real power, the government propped up by our American neighbors will do what they traditionally do in their society and one wonders how long they will tow the American line. History has showed this past century how utterly futile positioning power in foreign countries, and calling this democracy, can be. Our current government here in Canada plays politics with those who are blindly loyal to the Bush cause ie his fight against terrorism but do you honestly think that many are listening now that we realize that America has awoken from it's slumber and wants these thoughtless emotionally and not fact based wars to end? What will your school of thought (war in Afghanistan supporters) do when the government as it currently stands loses credibility and support for the NATO adventure? Will you then just call everyone appeasers?
If I don't respond it's because I don't care to be rude to opinions I find obtuse.
With respect to who the terrorists are may I suggest the documentary called "Talking to the Taliban".....we only get so close to the truth and then many bury it.
 
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