MuchoGrande
New Member
If downtown TO is a desirable and appropriate place for families to live in three bedroom units in high-rise buildings, why are they not being built already?
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A place to live downtown — with the kids
- Thread starter M II A II R II K
- Start date
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
They are some, but in the past decade or so these sized units are well out of the average families reach with psf being so high now. Once again I point to plenty of resale condo apartments that populate MLS, one need only spend an hour looking to find how many of these generously sized family friendly units that there actually are.
MuchoGrande
New Member
I would imagine that most (but certainly not all) two parent families consider the average price of a 3 bedroom condo in the downtown area (at least $500k) and would elect to move out of the core to a townhouse, semi or even a single. It may not be quite as convenient but all things considered the average family would have a tough time justify paying the same amount of money for a 3 bedroom condo as a larger place with a yard elsewhere, even in the 416.
Again, not everyone would think this way but I have to think that the vast majority of families do. Raising a family downtown can't be cheap and unless developers agree to subsidize the price of three bedroom units I don't see this changing.
greenleaf
Senior Member
If you live and work downtown, a family would be able to cut out at least one car if not both cars, thus freeing up a lot more money to purchase a family-sized unit downtown.
I work downtown and value my time more than my square footage, so raising a family downtown makes sense to me. I personally can't imagine spending all that time commuting back and forth just for an extra room or a patch of green grass that my kids can play in while I'm not there.
I am only considering older units since they are more spacious and I find the layouts to be much better than new builds. The older affordable ones are out there and do pop up, as dt said.
I don't think new ones are being built because larger units sell later in the building process and I presume that effects when a building starts construction. I think a family looking for a unit downtown would look for something available now or soon to be available, rather than a pre-construction unit 3-4 years out. If a couple is planning to have a child or another child, that is something that can't exactly be controlled, so it would make sense to wait to move until you need the space or location rather than plan that far ahead.
I work downtown and value my time more than my square footage, so raising a family downtown makes sense to me. I personally can't imagine spending all that time commuting back and forth just for an extra room or a patch of green grass that my kids can play in while I'm not there.
I am only considering older units since they are more spacious and I find the layouts to be much better than new builds. The older affordable ones are out there and do pop up, as dt said.
I don't think new ones are being built because larger units sell later in the building process and I presume that effects when a building starts construction. I think a family looking for a unit downtown would look for something available now or soon to be available, rather than a pre-construction unit 3-4 years out. If a couple is planning to have a child or another child, that is something that can't exactly be controlled, so it would make sense to wait to move until you need the space or location rather than plan that far ahead.
KA1
Senior Member
Just a thought for you. Have you considered as to where the kids are going to play, go to school or go trick and treat on Halloween night? I recall reading an article, long time ago, in The Star that residents of a building near St. Lawrence Market had canvassed and identified units in the buildings where kids on Halloween night will be welcome.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Kids play in parks, online and on their parents' iphone.
Trick or treating isn't allowed in my household--candy is evil.
Schools? They're everywhere.
That being said, I'd rather raise kids in a cheaper Hamilton home than in an over-priced downtown Toronto condo.
Trick or treating isn't allowed in my household--candy is evil.
Schools? They're everywhere.
That being said, I'd rather raise kids in a cheaper Hamilton home than in an over-priced downtown Toronto condo.
greenleaf
Senior Member
Yep. We live near greenspace and in walking distance of several daycares, schools, and parks. Kids can play outside and will amuse themselves just fine. Sure, this isn't how most people would choose to do things but it works for us.
I realize the halloween thing is just an example, but I'm not going to define my family's day-to-day existence based on a once a year event.
kettal
Banned
There's plenty of trick or treating to be done if you just walk to Cabbagetown, Riverdale, Bellwoods, or the Annex.
that_girl_there
New Member
I never said that a family needed to be out of the city to raise kids properly. I just said that a lot of people believe that that's what's best. Which means it doesn't really matter if you personally don't think that to be true. The reality is that you can get homes for the same price as a condo, and a lot of people do value space more than they value their time.
For me, the pressing issue here isn't proving one person right or the other wrong, it's curbing sprawl. And that's why I think we need to convince people that raising a family in a condo is ok. I will add that I think there is still place for single-detached homes in Toronto. I grew up in one, and I was happy. But I was fortunate enough to have parents who could afford a house that is close to downtown. Most families don't have that luxury, and are driving the demand for pushing subdivisions farther and farther out of the city.
And that's bad.
For me, the pressing issue here isn't proving one person right or the other wrong, it's curbing sprawl. And that's why I think we need to convince people that raising a family in a condo is ok. I will add that I think there is still place for single-detached homes in Toronto. I grew up in one, and I was happy. But I was fortunate enough to have parents who could afford a house that is close to downtown. Most families don't have that luxury, and are driving the demand for pushing subdivisions farther and farther out of the city.
And that's bad.
js97
Senior Member
can i just say that anyone that can afford a 600k+ home and has kids will have a car...
you have kids? Car is a reality. you're not gonna double ride 2 kids (a few hipsters will) but 95% of them will not.
just a thought!
js97
Senior Member
Why is it bad that homes downtown are not affordable for the average Joe?
greenleaf
Senior Member
Toronto's motto is "Diversity Our Strength". I think we can and should strive for this with housing. This means family housing and housing that is affordable downtown, as well as luxury housing and everything inbetween. The city is healthier and more sustainable this way.
The car is not a reality for me.I don't own a car for a number of reasons (including environmental) and can get everywhere by transit and walking. I've lived downtown for four years now and have not yet needed a car for anything. Immediately prior to Toronto, I lived in Atlanta where you can only get around in a car and it was hell. I hated the feeling of being trapped by 4 wheels. Pollution was horrendous there and driving was stressful. I don't want or need that.
that_girl_there: it's all good. Sorry I misunderstood you, but got it now. Perhaps some kind of educational effort is needed to show that families can live downtown to help curb sprawl and lower the demand for that kind of housing.
js97
Senior Member
I agree... but how do you achieve that when there is limited supply and a demand that surpasess that supply?
It's easy to do the affordable housing, but how do you do the 'mid' level homes?
It sounds great to have this message of sustainability , 'diversity is our strength', but then, there is the the reality of 600k homes in the core. I'd be curious to hear some ideas on how you would achieve that. There is preaching, and then there is what you can actually do.
Well I've lived downtown my entire life and can tell you that you do need a car, only at times though. I hate driving, but when you make the trip to home depot, grocery shopping for a family of 4, bringing kids tot he swiming pool, life is easier if you have a car.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
At the end of the day, it is about choice - you can't live a suburban lifestyle in the core, and if you aren't willing to see that there are alternatives to raising kids in a house (which there are, clearly), the rest of the debate is moot.
AoD
AoD
that_girl_there
New Member
One correction - you can live a suburban lifestyle in the core if you can afford Rosedale.
Another correction - I think people can be convinced that there are alternatives to raising kids in a house. But right now, with there being so many affordable options outside of the city...people don't want to be convinced of that.
Wow, listening to myself maybe I'm starting to believe that Torontonians (city folk anyways) do kind of wish Toronto were NYC...