A controversial thread about handicapped people

[andomano]

Not that I'm racist, but...

Not that I don't like immigrants, but...

Not that I have anything against old people, but...

Always a solid way to start a sound argument.

With this in mind, maybe the title of this thread should read:
"An ignorant beginning to a thread"

 

[Northern Magus]

Not that I'm racist, but...

Not that I don't like immigrants, but...

Not that I have anything against old people, but...

Always a solid way to start a sound argument.

Yep, they're usually the calling cards of (1) racists, (2) bigots, and (3) assholes. And their goals are never to start sound arguments or contribute to any kind of healthy debate.

Quite the opposite.

To the losers who've made these dumb, pathetic posts: don't bother trying to dress yourselves up as "devil's advocates" discussing economics. What you really are is clear to see. If you want to use this forum to foment resentment and antipathy towards the most vulnerable people around us, go somewhere else. Because suggesting that disabled people should demean themselves by justifying the costs of their inclusion is every bit as stupid as it is sickening.

Every person with a disability has the right, guaranteed under our law, to ride the bus, take the subway, and do all the things that everyone else takes for granted. Full stop. The TTC is legally obliged to make that happen, and quite proud of every step it takes to do so.

So if you don't like that, tough. Because their human rights won't ever be eroded.

 

[kEiThZ]

Oh come of it. It's a valid question,whether the handicapped and other riders might be served better through Wheeltrans than the regular system. We may not agree with his take on the situation but I see nothing bigoted about the question.

 

[adma]

Wheeltrans if necessary, but not necessarily Wheeltrans. Okay?

 

[EnviroTO]

Saving money by excluding people that cost more to serve due to no fault of their own is not a system we should ever support. Not in health care, not in transit, not in anything. If wheel-trans was an ideal system then the city would be providing a similar taxi-like system for all of us and foregoing the bus and subway system altogether.

 

[ShonTron]

Sigh.

I feel like this another thread that's about ready to be shut down.

There are huge advantages to making transit fully accessible:
- The convenience for disabled persons not to have to rely on Wheel-Trans and take conventional, scheduled transit. Wheel-Trans is a pain in the butt for scheduling trips and can take longer than conventional transit if there's additional stops. The wait for a Wheel-Trans bus can be long.
- The ability for those who aren't necessarily disabled, but have mobility issues, to access transit, making it a more attractive option.
- Families. Though I don't like seeing too many oversized SUV strollers blocking the way inside the buses.
- People with carts or luggage.

The only downside is the reduced capacity of buses with low-floor models. The split level bus type has lost room with the front wheel wells, and poor flow at the back. (The alternative, an all-low-floor bus, was a disaster). There's several alternatives:

- Increased bus capacity: articulated buses, double-deck buses, or 45-foot buses (the size GO uses). Of course, 45-foot buses would have to be limited to suburban routes where there are few tight curves. Los Angeles uses 45-foot urban buses for many of the Red 700-series routes.

- More buses.

- A better bus design - the Viva VanHool buses get away with having seats above the wheel wells, and a large standing area in the middle and no stairs (instead, having raised seats). Of course, the all-door loading helps a lot.

 

[Chuck]

If you want to talk financial burden, what would be the result if hundreds of thousands of handicapped or disabled people could not find a job because they had no means of traveling to work? You would be replacing income tax revenue (net gain) with social assistance (net loss), which would cost far more to the government than spending relatively little on accessibility improvements which benefit everyone.

When the TTC is purchasing hundreds of transit vehicles, the incremental cost of making them more accessible costs almost nothing. Same goes for elevator construction on a new subway line. The only significant cost is elevator installation in existing stations, but again this benefits everyone, certainly me when I sprained my ankle.

 

[doady]

I think since people can get onto a bus easier and faster thanks to the low floor design, then everyone could benefit too. Less delays means more frequent service which means the route will have higher capacity anyways, and the reduced capacity of each individual bus is offset.

 

[adma]

- A better bus design - the Viva VanHool buses get away with having seats above the wheel wells, and a large standing area in the middle and no stairs (instead, having raised seats). Of course, the all-door loading helps a lot.

Ah, whenever I see the name "Viva VanHool", I think burlesque...

 

[Northern Magus]

Sigh.
I feel like this another thread that's about ready to be shut down.

You sure have my vote. Because this area is fundamentally governed by accessibility legislation, any of these discussions are ultimately about the rights and inclusion of disabled people. Criticizing and undermining their right to access public transit is ultimately a call for their marginalization. And giving a soapbox to those who would curtail their liberty shames us all by association.

For the avoidance of any doubt, let's quickly review the offensive posts:

I have nothing against physically impaired people at all.... I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap.

<snip>

The only people I have ever seen using the elevators at stations are usually fat lazy looking people, not handicapped.

<snip>

Catering to handicapped people just seems like a big waste of money that they should be spending on expanding service and comfort levels for [able-bodied] people who actually use the TTC.

<snip>

I love all people equally.

And just in case we missed his point, our self-proclaimed humanist then suggests that accommodating the disabled is actually driving able-bodied people away from public transit:

[Regarding low-floor buses that have sections to accommodate wheelchairs] What about the loss of seating? Believe it or not im sure there's a lot of people who dont ride transit because they cant sit down.

To our forum's credit, these ignorant and moronic postings have been near-universally condemned by all the UT members who have posted here. Except, of course, by one.

One for whom these posts seem to have struck a resonant chord. One who apparently sees value in criticizing the right of disabled people to use and access public transit. One who apparently thinks it fine to marginalize the most vulnerable people around us and ghettoize them on separate vehicles.

One who has previously had this said about him:

Keithz that is the single most offensive, obnoxious and inflammatory and wholly asinine thing I have ever seen you type here.

It goes far beyond what is intellectually or morally acceptable.

Not only has no one suggested any of what you have insinuated; but in fact all of your supposition is countered by an knowledge whatever of the Canadian environmental movement.

So, yeah, any "controversial" thread that draws these "devil's advocate" types out of the woodwork is probably something that should be kiboshed fast.

 

[rbt]

I think the TTC spends way to much money to cater to handicap. Honestly all of these low floor buses, proposed low floor streetcars, ...

These 3 items specifically are a substantial cost savings to the TTC. Why? Virtually all of North America and a good chunk of Europe are buying low-floor rolling stock; and the TTC would be making a wholly custom design to build its own high-floor vehicle meeting modern pollution/etc. guides.

 

[tkip]

Horrific would be an understatement....

Having read this guy's posts regarding the disabled ruining the TTC and society at large, I have to say that people with this thinking are disturbed and a disease in our society.

While we're getting rid of the disabled and the means to supply them with places on the TTC and public with accessibility, why not go further and take the next logical step with this approach?

Pregnant? Your fault. Women getting pregnant are a drain and nuisance on society to begin with and we shouldn't have to make room for them since it's their fault that they decided to have a baby and produce the next generation of consumers and replacement population.

Elderly? Not my problem. Don't expect to get my seat or any seat on my bus old man. Maybe you shouldn't have tried so hard to live so long. Clearly selflessness taken to the extreme. Why don't you stay home and pay for deliveries or do you banking online or have visitors over thus avoiding taking public transit?

Injuries that prevent you from standing? Again, why waste my time and waste resources and steal my seat away because you didn't have the intelligence to somehow avoid any injury at all costs.

Overweight. Well, since you decided to put that weight on, then be prepared to stand and take your punishment. You should have been tossed off the vechicle. Why did the driver even allow you on in the first place?

Anyone else out there who for some reason that isn't my concern, who for some reason that I could care less about, getting on aboard and taking up space and somehow violating my rights and killing my day when you should have just called a taxi and we wouldn't be having this debate.

Obviously with taking these measures, we would be moving closer to a utopian society where one can board transit, walk the streets and never have the displeasure of seeing someone that destroys their experience and takes money away from providing something more of benefit to the ablebodied.

And when it's their time,,,,,,

I'm sure someone like StIdes will gladly do the right thing and stay the hell away from my transit and hide inside their home thus allowing myself the pleassure of living instead of dealing with them in the public sphere and forcing me to go online and demanding action be taken against these con artists in our society.

 

[ShonTron]

And with that, we're closed. There's obviously little (if anything) constructive to add to this debate.