501 Queen - TTC Report

[Hipster Duck]

I might be drawn and quartered for saying this but, frankly, if building a Queen subway (and, believe me, a subway would be economically successful from day one) means the death of the 501, then - as Leslie Feist might say - "let it die".

I am a transit enthusiast but not a nostalgist. Transit should be about moving as many people as quickly and comfortably as possible.

 

[BobBob]

A significant improvement doesn't have to mean subway. What if we turned Queen St. into a transit mall? Like Spadina, but done right. That might be enough to provide a good east-west downtown line.

 

[unimaginative2]

Red Rocket, first of all I don't advocate building a subway on Queen. I think one should go to Union roughly along the Network 2011 DRL route, and that would beautifully complement the 501. That being said, service on Queen is a disaster. It takes an hour to go to Woodbine from Spadina. It's just not suited to long distance trips. For local service, however, with some improvements it could be just fine.

I wouldn't suggest a subway on Queen for a long time. I think that the streetcar has a lot of room for improvement, and it could be easily done especially with a complementary subway crosstown subway route in the DRL. First of all, as Steve Munro has effectively demonstrated, most of the problems come from a complete lack of any effort on the part of the TTC to maintain separation and headways. Fixing that wouldn't require a dime in extra funding (it would probably save money) or capital improvement. Beyond that, I'd like to see both King and Queen converted into a one-way pair. Two lanes would be reserved for the streetcar, and two would be retained for autos and parking. It would undoubtedly be much more palatable than the one way alternating direction every block that was proposed for King a few years ago. With its own lane, GPS-driven signal priority, and decent management, there's no reason why the Queen and King cars couldn't offer good local service for the long term, along with a DRL subway along Front and the rail corridor providing more rapid crosstown service.

There's really no parallel between previous subway expansions and Queen. Sure, streetcars were abandoned in the past, but that was the 60s. And yes, bus service is limited on Sheppard, but there's far less need for local service on a route like that than on Queen. That being said, you're right that most people would switch to a subway. After all, it's faster, more comfortable, and more reliable (which of course begs the question -- why does the TTC refuse to build any more of them?), but there would still be some demand for local service. The streetcar could operate more unusual routings, such as a Spadina-Queen car that could save people a transfer.

Still, there's no reason why streetcars can't be maintained even with a subway below. As I mentioned earlier, Market Street has streetcars even with two subways below.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Even if the Queen streetcar dies (and it possibly should in the long term), King, Dundas, and College will always be there to give railfans and tourists nostalgic 30 minute waits.

As for bus service above subways, the Sheppard East bus west of Don Mills wouldn't be needed by more than a tiny handful of people (around Shaughnessy, or maybe a few west of Bayview) if they had built a Willowdale station. A great many of the people who take the Yonge 97 get on/off in the Yonge Blvd area, saving them a long, difficult walk up the hill, and the rest mostly use it north of Finch (but they take Steeles buses interchangably) or north or south of Lawrence when they don't want to walk for 5+ minutes. Yonge and Sheppard don't need bus service better than every 15 minutes...and, really, how often does Queen see a real frequency of 15 minutes or better? The truth is that most people prefer improved travel times, reliability, etc., over a vehicle that happens to stop outside their front door but goes nowhere fast.

 

[Dan416]

And with CityTV leaving Queen St. soon, we don't need them there for background eye candy anymore for CityLine.

 

[Towered]

Still, there's no reason why streetcars can't be maintained even with a subway below. As I mentioned earlier, Market Street has streetcars even with two subways below.

Another example I can think of is in Vienna - the Ringstrasse has subway lines underneath it, and also a (very busy, I might add) streetcar running on the surface.

 

[unimaginative2]

You're right. Just to reiterate, though, I don't think that Queen or any of the streetcar lines downtown should ever be abandoned, and nor do I think any ever will be. They add to the character of downtown, and they offer good local service when they're reliable. On the other hand, I don't think a nostalgic (and erroneous) fear that we might lose them should be used as a reason to halt any and all transit development in the core.

Like I said, build the subway on Front and the rail corridor, and give King and Queen a ROW by making them a one-way pair for faster travel. Further east, a "moving ROW" that's been tried in Europe might be a good solution in the Beach. It's a system that uses signals to get cars out of the lane when a streetcar is approaching, but doesn't take up the lane otherwise.

 

[drum118]

Looks like the forum will be at City Hall at 7 pm on Monday June 16 two days before TTC meeting.

Most likely will be in council cambers.

More update as this is being put together.

 

[Dan416]

You're right. Just to reiterate, though, I don't think that Queen or any of the streetcar lines downtown should ever be abandoned, and nor do I think any ever will be. They add to the character of downtown, and they offer good local service when they're reliable. On the other hand, I don't think a nostalgic (and erroneous) fear that we might lose them should be used as a reason to halt any and all transit development in the core.

Like I said, build the subway on Front and the rail corridor, and give King and Queen a ROW by making them a one-way pair for faster travel. Further east, a "moving ROW" that's been tried in Europe might be a good solution in the Beach. It's a system that uses signals to get cars out of the lane when a streetcar is approaching, but doesn't take up the lane otherwise.

Hmm that sounds like a really good idea.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I might be drawn and quartered for saying this but, frankly, if building a Queen subway (and, believe me, a subway would be economically successful from day one) means the death of the 501, then - as Leslie Feist might say - "let it die".

I am a transit enthusiast but not a nostalgist. Transit should be about moving as many people as quickly and comfortably as possible.

But you are penalizing the wrong people/service. Streetcars provide a specific service that subways do not...it isn't all just about the fuzzy nostalgia and comforting feeling streetcars bring to riders or the contribution they bring to a neighborhood (not to downplay the importance of those things). Replacing a streetcar with a subway is not an improvement...it's losing one and gaining another...a compromise....a trade-off. And not a good one considering the important role the streetcar has had on Queen for well over a century.

It isn't about streetcars vs subways...on Queen, it's streetcars vs cars. And when we have one struggling but important transit route vs just another one of a zillion congested roads...then the solution is clear... the car should definitely lose when up against a streetcar route when the two cannot perform reasonably together.

The status quo simply means everybody loses...streetcars and cars (it's no party for cyclists on Queen either).

Taking a very busy, fairly narrow high street, and expecting high capacity frequent rail service, sharing lanes with mixed traffic, complete with street parking and left turning to work is just plain silly.

The only viable solution is simply a tough pill to swallow, which is why nobody has the balls to make it happen. First of all, left turning on any streetcar route should never be allowed...period. The convenience factor for cars vs huge problem for transit should make that one a no-brainer.

Short of turning the problematic sections of Queen into pure transit/ped-ways, it will simply have to put in ROWs for the streetcars with fully functional signal priority at all lights, with zero left-turning allowed. Now that transit has been given what it needs to function properly, then they can compromise on the space that's left for car traffic and parking.

Cars don't like it...too bad...there's plenty of streets purely devoted to cars to choose from.

As for mass-transit cross-town subway routes...sure, I suppose we could use one below Bloor...build one...it just has nothing to do with the 501.

 

[unimaginative2]

I certainly agree with the last part. I also think that the simple and fairly obvious solution that I have suggested earlier might be the best way to accomplish both goals. Take two lanes from the road and create a dedicated streetcar ROW on both King and Queen. Then use the remaining two lanes for cars, operating as a one-way pair. One of the lanes would be available for parking off peak.

It's fine to hate cars, but cars and on-street parking are the lifeblood of the hundreds of successful small businesses on Queen. Too many measures designed to punish drivers and the drivers will just go some place else. It'll be the small businesses that get punished instead.

 

[drum118]

"Fixing the 501: A Queen Streetcar Updateâ€

You are invited to attend a public forum “Fixing the 501: A Queen Streetcar Update†at 7:00 pm, Monday, June 16 in Committee Room 2 at Toronto City Hall.

This is a follow-up to the December 4, 2007 public meeting about service problems along the Queen 501 route.

TTC staff will provide an update as to how they plan to deal with the 501 -- based on their presentation to TTC Commissioners on May 23, 2008. There are opportunities for public input both at this event and during public presentations at the next TTC commission meeting Wednesday, June 18.

Representatives from various City departments will be on hand to address transportation issues that are not under TTC control.

For details, contact David Fisher at drum118@hotmail.com or Roger Brook at 416 538-1285

Please past this on to other groups and people who maybe interested. If you want to give a hand, contact me.

Note: Panel will be City staff only and Steve Munro speak after the city is finish and then go to the floor.

Thanks