501 Queen - TTC Report

[scarberiankhatru]

Does the rule apply to hilly or curvy routes?

I remember when Finch East used to always have a convoy of buses in sight...an articulated peloton.

 

[drum118]

A presentation was made at Wednesday TTC meeting on the 501 and it will be on TTC website this weekend.

There is no written report and will be no written report until October.

The public can speak on the presentation as well what taking place on the line now at the June 18 meeting.

Staff is asking for more money to cover the cost of 6 supervisor that on the 501 route now and not in the 2008 budget. Couple of commissioner question the need for them in the first place and only had to shake my head no, no. Even Steve who was sitting next me was cover his face.

There will be another 501 forum on Monday June 9 subject to confirmation of TTC staff schedule. Time and place to follow.

There will most likely be a recommendation made to Transportation and Works on banning left hand turns at various intersections as well locations that have an impact on the 501 service. In some places, right hand turn bans will be put in at some location. Banning of stopping and loading between University and Victoria will recommend also. Sections of Queen will see no parking at peak time put in place. This will be at the June meeting after been asked by the chair of Transportation and Works to do it.

As for splitting the line, that will come up at the July meeting as there is over 10 options at this time as how to do it. Cost has to be worked out for each options. Plan to put it in place either in November or January board changes.

I told staff I saw 7 westbound cars between University and Bay today as a convoy with one car going to Kipling, 2 Humber, 1 McCaul, 3 to Long Branch and did not see the other. Then last Thursday, I waited 15 minute for an eastbound at Bathurst only to have a 3 pack show up with crush load on the first one. At the same time, I saw 3 3 pack go west in the same time frame. My car was down 8 minutes putting the front car down 14. Got off at Yonge to see 4 more cars behind mine with another 3 going west.

 

[Long Island Mike]

The 501 Queen streetcar line...

Drum: Interesting info on the 501 Queen streetcar line-I have seen for myself how busy it sometimes gets. I remember on one of my trips I was on the western part of Queen and there was a car accident blocking the track in the EB direction-WB cars were crawling by. There in the traffic jam streetcars were backing up-I remember at least a dozen cars backed up waiting for the track to be cleared.

I still say and agree with those people that say that Queen Street should have a LRT with a downtown underground section or a Subway line should have been constructed by the TTC instead of the Sheppard Line back when funds were available here. The demand for improved service is definitely there. LI MIKE

 

[MetroMan]

I've been following this issue on and off on Steve Munro's site. He has paid a lot of attention to it. The Queen streetcar has lost a lot of riders, at a time when the TTC in general has had significant increases in ridership. Something wrong with that picture.

Count me in with those losses. I was an 8-year-straight Metropass Plan subscriber but the 20 minute walk to downtown from my Queen + Bathurst stop too often turned out to be better than waiting 20 minutes or more for a streetcar and then still waiting 15 minutes to get downtown. I cancelled my metropass and signed up with Zip Car for when I really need to get somewhere further than walking distance.

501 is a major route akin to a subway route – I won't get in to how much Queen St. needs a subway – so wait times should be no more than 6 minutes or 3 minutes at peak times.

Queen Street runs in an absolute straight line for all of its downtown portion. Riders should be able to look either way and see a streetcar coming, even if far into the distance.

If any streetcar route need a GPS powered "Time to next streetcar" indicator, the 501 is it.

 

[RedRocket191]

I'm a little weary about a subway on Queen. I believe downtown streetcars in Toronto are like the Cable Cars in San Francisco and yellow cabs in NYC. They are part of Toronto's identity, and a full fledged subway under Queen will bring about the abandonment the 501. Having said that, we need to add capacity and reliability to the King and Queen Street corridors.

I think the Richmond and Adelaide corridors should be looked at for higher order transit. It achieves the objectives, and allows Toronto to maintain one of the things that gives it a unique identity.

We can have our cake and eat it too.

 

[Towered]

I'm a little weary about a subway on Queen. I believe downtown streetcars in Toronto are like the Cable Cars in San Francisco and yellow cabs in NYC. They are part of Toronto's identity, and a full fledged subway under Queen will bring about the abandonment the 501. Having said that, we need to add capacity and reliability to the King and Queen Street corridors.

I think the Richmond and Adelaide corridors should be looked at for higher order transit. It achieves the objectives, and allows Toronto to maintain one of the things that gives it a unique identity.

We can have our cake and eat it too.

Would a Queen subway necessarily mean the abandonment of the streetcar? It could still be used for local service, plus it's nicer to have a view while traveling...

 

[unimaginative2]

and a full fledged subway under Queen will bring about the abandonment the 501.

Says who? Nobody has ever suggested abandoning any streetcar lines in Toronto. If you need an example, Market Street in San Francisco has a streetcar line on the surface and two subway lines below.

The Downtown Relief Line, for example, would beautifully complement the streetcar lines by allowing them to focus on local neighbourhood service while the subway is used for rapid crosstown trips.

 

[RedRocket191]

A subway doesn't have to mean abandonned service, but from a cost perspective, it will be very difficult to justify a high-capacity streetcar line operating above a subway.

If we build a Queen street subway using cut-and-cover, they will not rebuild the tracks for the above reasons. If we build it using bored tunnels, then it will take longer, but the above reasons will eventually bring about its closing.

If we build a Queen Street subway, then the politics will see the end of the 501.

Unless, of course, we are talking about station spacing of 1.5 to 2 km. This will be a very tough sell in downtown Toronto with so many major destinations so close together.

 

[MetroMan]

I agree. While I would hate to lose the streetcar on Queen, it has become absolutely necessary to replace it at this point.

How can Queen and King streetcars support all the Bay St. office crowd going home at 5pm every day? Add the vehicular traffic on both those streets and you got yourself a nightmare, five days a week.
Somehow it has managed to do this and people have been patient but sooner or later, the top is going to blow off this and all hell will break loose as politicians try to fix things up quickly and discover that there is no quick fix.

Sure we can build a subway under Richmond (and call it a Queen St. Subway) and avoid having to close down either the King or Queen streetcar. However, one or both would probably be closed down once the subway opened. There would be little justification for a streetcar other than for tourist purposes.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If we build a Queen Street subway, then the politics will see the end of the 501.

Unless, of course, we are talking about station spacing of 1.5 to 2 km. This will be a very tough sell in downtown Toronto with so many major destinations so close together.

There's no way there'd be 2km spacing, or, for that matter, even 1.5km. Despite some existing full concession stretches of 2km, many of which run through areas full of absolutely nothing, one could say there's no precedence for that kind of subway stop spacing in Toronto - this is also true for more recent projects with both Sheppard and Spadina to Vaughan at about 1.3km.

An average 1km spacing should mean every point on Queen is no more than 400m from a station entrance (assuming entrances at each end; it'd be more like 500m if there's only one entrance).

Since convoys of streetcars tend to pass every 30 minutes, I don't see why 30 minute service of *one* streetcar couldn't be kept. Or maybe more...if people were no longer forced to rely on streetcars for long trips, the routes could be changed and streetcars could run any and every which way. Or maybe people will just have to get their streetcar fix somewhere else...like on all those billion dollar streetcar lines certain someones want to build in the suburbs.

Of course, the first subway downtown gets should go to Union, which means not running under Queen (although two east/west subways are warranted in the long term).

 

[W. K. Lis]

A Downtown Relief Line should be express between Dundas West Station and Pape Station. It doesn't have to follow Queen Street or King Street, simply have express stations at the main roads and subway stations. Local streetcar service should remain, but with direct transfer platforms with the express line, no off-road transfers.

 

[matthew]

(2) Note the following:
[*]it is extremely challenging to operate reliable and regular fixed-rail transit service in a mixed-traffic environment where the TTC has no control over the multitude of factors which delay or obstruct service;

Has the TTC ever explained why the service on Spadina is so unreliable, badly spaced, and lacks capacity? Given the TTC's insistence that a private ROW is needed, I would have expected the only high-capacity route where they have one to be better run than it is.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Spadina's Problems:
1) No signal priority
2) Stops too close together
3) Too many intersections
4) Bad rider etiquette - boarding obviously full streetcars, despite another one immediately behind it - thus keeping the doors open -- a 10 second delay for one streetcar on the line has a huge effect down the line, leading to the bunching delays we see often.
5) Front door loading slows things down as well

I've proposed that Spadina become POP with crash gates at Spadina Station and Union Station. This would speed up boarding at the stops, where it's needed, and not reduce revenue - most people on Spadina are transferring to/from other services, and its short route length means people aren't really riding that far for free. And if they do, it's a nice tourist perk to be able to hop on the streetcar from Chinatown to the Waterfront for free... that stretch is not that busy anyway.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's the TTC's usual litany of blame-the-customer excuses, but how do you expect to operate a reliably spaced service if no effort is made to have cars depart the terminal station at their scheduled spacing? I ride the line every day. They leave the terminals in convoys. How is that the rider's fault? Or the signals' fault, for that matter. No, reliability is entirely the TTC's fault.

When it comes to travel time, however, you have very good points. I'd get rid of at least a couple of the intersections, particularly the seemingly unnecessary U-Turn light up in Kensington Market. I'd also convert the pedestrian signals for two-stage crossings, like on University. Pedestrian refuge islands would be built in the middle of the street so that slower walkers can cross over two light cycles. Able-bodied people should still be able to make it across in one go. That would allow shorter red lights for the Spadina side. POP or perhaps some kind of Curitiba bus tube is the best solution for fare collection, especially at busier stops. It takes forever to load a streetcar with everybody digging for change and tokens as they get on. Ultimately, I'd like to see a real GPS-driven signal priority system that knows well in advance when streetcars are approaching and ensures that they face a green light.

If we build a Queen Street subway, then the politics will see the end of the 501.

Again, where are you getting this from? I'm not sure you quite understand the political forces at play in today's City of Toronto. It's not the 70s anymore. Nobody wants to abandon streetcar routes. In fact, the Mayor and TTC Chair are big streetcar fans. The media like streetcars too. There is absolutely no reason to abandon the Queen streetcar after the DRL is built, and no way that it would ever happen.

In fact, the 501 would benefit immensely from a DRL. It could finally be split effectively into three routes, which the TTC believes is necessary to improve reliability. One route would run to the Beach east of Queen East station at Pape. One would run west from Queen West station at Dufferin, and the other route would serve the central area. Riders from outlying areas on the streetcar would transfer to the subway for a swift trip downtown, while people going to neighbourhoods along Queen would transfer from the subway coming down from Bloor to the streetcar for their onward journey downtown.

 

[RedRocket191]

@ Unimaginative2

If we built a subway along Queen, it's very unlikely to have only three or four stops along the way. It is very likely that it will have stops at the major arterial roads. It is very likely to have station spacing somewhere in between Sheppard-style and Bloor-Danforth- style. If we build such a line from Riverdale to Parkdale, I think that most of the passengers on the corridor would be willing to walk further to the subway stations rather than waiting for the streetcar to take them to the nearest station.

Ridership on the surface would dwindle as people move to the subway, and it will be very difficult to justify rebuilding streetcar tracks on Queen when the need arises. You definitely would not be able to rely on the passenger counts as proof that higher-capacity vehicles are needed to fill the demand.

We've seen this on all the subway lines we've constructed in Toronto. Even in the peak hours, the ridership counts on the buses that overlap the subway are not enough to warrant more frequent service than every 15 minutes if you're lucky. Of course we could put on more service if we wanted, but we can't use the passenger counts as justification. It will have to based on a political desire to put more service.

Maybe I was wrong to say that politics would kill the 501 if a Queen subway was built. Economics will kill it, and politics, depending on which way the wind is blowing, will let it die or leave it on life support.