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44th Canadian Federal Election

But aren't we?

No.

I've had the great privilege/luck to do a lot of travelling, both outside of North America, but also across much of Canada and the U.S.
I would suggest the differences in social behavior/ideas, are quite material; particularly as one heads further from the border.

From the mundane, to the substantive, we are different peoples.
Sure we're all human (more or less); and sure, among English-speaking Canadians, the language is mostly the same across the border.

But there is a great deal that varies.

To grossly over simplify, but note some obvious differences.

1) Canadians like vinegar on french fries............most Americans have never heard of this idea. (Seriously, go just across to Michigan, and see if you can get vinegar packets at a fast food place.....)
2) Canadians are far more likely to hold a passport and much more likely to have traveled outside their country
3) Canadians are markedly less religious than our peers to the south.
4) Canadians are generally more likely to speak a second language, and that difference becomes vast when you exclude Hispanic Americans for whom English is their second language.
5) A far greater portion of Americans have military experience and prioritize spending on same, than is the case here.
6) Canadians are much more likely to use public transit, and to see it as a service for the middle class/everyone as opposed to just the poor.
7) Americans are far more likely to have spent time in jail.

I could go on.........but you get the idea.

JJ does need to be taken with a pinch a salt, to a greater or lesser extent, no doubt.

An infinitely great amount of salt. He is factually wrong more often than he is right in my experience. His commitment to accuracy is seriously wanting.

But. He can be quite amusing especially when bursting American ideas of Canada that have no grounding in reality.

Meh, doesn't offset his very large weak points for me; including that he regularly misinforms Americans about what Canadians are like too.
 
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No.

I've had the great privilege/luck to do a lot of travelling, both outside of North America, but also across much of Canada and the U.S.
I would suggest the differences in social behavior/ideas, are quite material; particular as one heads further from the border.

From the mundane, the substantive, we are different peoples.
Sure we're all human (more or less); and sure, among English-speaking Canadians, the language is mostly the same across the border.

But there is a great deal that varies.

To grossly over simplify, but note some obvious differences.

1) Canadians like vinegar on french fries............most Americans have never heard of this idea. (Seriously, go just across to Michigan, and see if you can get vinegar packets at a fast food place.....)
2) Canadians are far more likely to hold a passport and much more likely to have traveled outside their country
3) Canadians are markedly less religious than our peers to the south.
4) Canadians and generally more likely to speak a second language, and that difference becomes vast when you exclude Hispanic Americans for whom English is their second language.
5) A far greater portion of American have military experience and prioritize spending on same, than is the case here.
6) Canadians are much more likely to use public transit, and to see it as a service for the middle class/everyone as opposed to just the poor.
7) Americans are far more likely to have spent time in jail.

I could go on.........but you get the idea.

An infinitely great amount of salt. He is factually wrong more often than he is right in my experience. His commitment to accuracy is seriously wanting.

Meh, doesn't offset his very large weak points for me; including that he regularly misinforms Americans and what Canadians are like too.
Nice to see my brainfart causing such a large discussion.

I think that, like it or not, America-lite is how most people view us, a natural consequence of sitting on top of the US.

It is quite hard for non-Canadians (Americans often assume you're from New York or Boston or something) to tell the difference - culturally, Canada takes its cues from down south.

A consequence is that others view our politics the same way, but less dysfunctional; the NDP is therefore seen as a radical left fringe party, when it regularly attracts 30 - 30%of popular support.

Anyways, I digress.
 

3 reasons the American Revolution was a mistake

From link.

Abolition would have come faster without independence​


The main reason the revolution was a mistake is that the British Empire, in all likelihood, would have abolished slavery earlier than the US did, and with less bloodshed.

Abolition in most of the British Empire occurred in 1834, following the passage of the Slavery Abolition Act. That left out India, but slavery was banned there, too, in 1843. In England itself, slavery was illegal at least going back to 1772. That's decades earlier than the United States.

This alone is enough to make the case against the revolution. Decades less slavery is a massive humanitarian gain that almost certainly dominates whatever gains came to the colonists from independence.

The main benefit of the revolution to colonists was that it gave more political power to America's white male minority. For the vast majority of the country — its women, slaves, American Indians — the difference between disenfranchisement in an independent America and disenfranchisement in a British-controlled colonial America was negligible. If anything, the latter would've been preferable, since at least women and minorities wouldn't be singled out for disenfranchisement. From the vantage point of most of the country, who cares if white men had to suffer through what everyone else did for a while longer, especially if them doing so meant slaves gained decades of free life?

It's true that had the US stayed, Britain would have had much more to gain from the continuance of slavery than it did without America. It controlled a number of dependencies with slave economies — notably Jamaica and other islands in the West Indies — but nothing on the scale of the American South. Adding that into the mix would've made abolition significantly more costly.

But the South's political influence within the British Empire would have been vastly smaller than its influence in the early American republic. For one thing, the South, like all other British dependencies, lacked representation in Parliament. The Southern states were colonies, and their interests were discounted by the British government accordingly. But the South was also simply smaller as a chunk of the British Empire's economy at the time than it was as a portion of America's. The British crown had less to lose from the abolition of slavery than white elites in an independent America did.

The revolutionaries understood this. Indeed, a desire to preserve slavery helped fuel Southern support for the war. In 1775, after the war had begun in Massachusetts, the Earl of Dunmore, then governor of Virginia, offered the slaves of rebels freedom if they came and fought for the British cause. Eric Herschthal, a PhD student in history at Columbia, notes that the proclamation united white Virginians behind the rebel effort. He quotes Philip Fithian, who was traveling through Virginia when the proclamation was made, saying, "The Inhabitants of this Colony are deeply alarmed at this infernal Scheme. It seems to quicken all in Revolution to overpower him at any Risk." Anger at Dunmore's emancipation ran so deep that Thomas Jefferson included it as a grievance in a draft of the Declaration of Independence. That's right: the declaration could've included "they're conscripting our slaves" as a reason for independence.

For white slaveholders in the South, Simon Schama writes in Rough Crossings, his history of black loyalism during the Revolution, the war was "a revolution, first and foremost, mobilized to protect slavery."

Slaves also understood that their odds of liberation were better under British rule than independence. Over the course of the war, about 100,000 African slaves escaped, died, or were killed, and tens of thousands enlisted in the British army, far more than joined the rebels. "Black Americans' quest for liberty was mostly tied to fighting for the British — the side in the War for Independence that offered them freedom," historian Gary Nash writes in The Forgotten Fifth, his history of African Americans in the revolution. At the end of the war, thousands who helped the British were evacuated to freedom in Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and England.

This is not to say the British were motivated by a desire to help slaves; of course they weren't. But American slaves chose a side in the revolution, the side of the crown. They were no fools. They knew that independence meant more power for the plantation class that had enslaved them and that a British victory offered far greater prospects for freedom.
 

Independence was bad for Native Americans​


Starting with the Proclamation of 1763, the British colonial government placed firm limits on westward settlement in the United States. It wasn't motivated by an altruistic desire to keep American Indians from being subjugated or anything; it just wanted to avoid border conflicts.

But all the same, the policy enraged American settlers, who were appalled that the British would seem to side with Indians over white men. "The British government remained willing to conceive of Native Americans as subjects of the crown, similar to colonists," Ethan Schmidt writes in Native Americans in the American Revolution. "American colonists … refused to see Indians as fellow subjects. Instead, they viewed them as obstacles in the way of their dreams of land ownership and trading wealth." This view is reflected in the Declaration of Independence, which attacks King George III for backing "merciless Indian Savages."

American independence made the proclamation void here. It's not void in Canada — indeed, there the 1763 proclamation is viewed as a fundamental document providing rights to self-government to First Nations tribes. It's mentioned explicitly in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada's Bill of Rights), which protects "any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763" for all aboriginal people. Historian Colin Calloway writes in The Scratch of a Pen: 1763 and the Transformation of North America that the proclamation "still forms the basis for dealings between Canada's government and Canada's First Nations."

And, unsurprisingly, Canada didn't see Indian wars and removals as large and sweeping as occurred in the US. They still committed horrible, indefensible crimes. Canada, under British rule and after, brutally mistreated aboriginal people, not least through government-inflicted famines and the state's horrific seizure of children from their families so they could attend residential schools. But the country didn't experience a westward expansion as violent and deadly as that pursued by the US government and settlers. Absent the revolution, Britain probably would've moved into Indian lands. But fewer people would have died.

None of this is to minimize the extent of British and Canadian crimes against Natives. "It's a hard case to make because even though I do think Canada's treatment of Natives was better than the United States, it was still terrible," the Canadian essayist Jeet Heer tells me in an email (Heer has also written a great case against American independence). "On the plus side for Canada: there were no outright genocides like the Trail of Tears (aside from the Beothuks of Newfoundland). The population statistics are telling: 1.4 million people of aboriginal descent in Canada as against 5.2 million in the USA. Given the fact that America is far more hospitable as an environment and has 10 times the non-aboriginal population, that's telling."

Independence also enabled acquisition of territory in the West through the Louisiana Purchase and the Mexican-American War. That ensured that America's particularly rapacious brand of colonialism ensnared yet more native peoples. And while Mexico and France were no angels, what America brought was worse. Before the war, the Apache and Comanche were in frequent violent conflict with the Mexican government. But they were Mexican citizens. The US refused to make them American citizens for a century. And then, of course, it violently forced them into reservations, killing many in the process.

American Indians would have still, in all likelihood, faced violence and oppression absent American independence, just as First Nations people in Canada did. But American-scale ethnic cleansing wouldn't have occurred. And like America's slaves, American Indians knew this. Most tribes sided with the British or stayed neutral; only a small minority backed the rebels. Generally speaking, when a cause is opposed by the two most vulnerable groups in a society, it's probably a bad idea. So it is with the cause of American independence.
 

America would have a better system of government if we'd stuck with Britain​


Honestly, I think earlier abolition alone is enough to make the case against the revolution, and it combined with less-horrible treatment of American Indians is more than enough. But it's worth taking a second to praise a less important but still significant consequence of the US sticking with Britain: we would've, in all likelihood, become a parliamentary democracy rather than a presidential one.

And parliamentary democracies are a lot, lot better than presidential ones. They're significantly less likely to collapse into dictatorship because they don't lead to irresolvable conflicts between, say, the president and the legislature. They lead to much less gridlock.

In the US, activists wanting to put a price on carbon emissions spent years trying to put together a coalition to make it happen, mobilizing sympathetic businesses and philanthropists and attempting to make bipartisan coalition — and they still failed to pass cap and trade, after millions of dollars and man hours. In the UK, the Conservative government decided it wanted a carbon tax. So there was a carbon tax, and the coal sector has taken a beating. Just like that. Passing big, necessary legislation — in this case, legislation that's literally necessary to save the planet — is a whole lot easier with parliaments than with presidential systems.

There are of course exceptions — you need only look at Theresa May’s years of struggle to put together a Brexit package that satisfies her party. But it’s notable that that fiasco began with a deviation from parliamentary government, when David Cameron decided to punt the question of leaving the European Union to the voters. It was the introduction of another unnecessary decisionmaking entity, very common in the veto point-heavy US system, that created the crisis in the first place.

This is no trivial matter. Efficient passage of legislation has huge humanitarian consequences. It makes measures of planetary importance, like carbon taxes, easier to get through; they still face political pushback, of course — Australia's tax got repealed, after all — but they can be enacted in the first place, which is far harder in the US system. And the efficiency of parliamentary systems enables larger social welfare programs that reduce inequality and improve life for poor citizens. Government spending in parliamentary countries is about 5 percent of GDP higher, after controlling for other factors, than in presidential countries. If you believe in redistribution, that's very good news indeed.

The Westminister system of parliamentary democracy also benefits from weaker upper houses. The US is saddled with a Senate that gives Wyoming the same power as California, which has more than 66 times as many people. Worse, the Senate is equal in power to the lower, more representative house. Most countries following the British system have upper houses — only New Zealand was wise enough to abolish it — but they're far, far weaker than their lower houses. The Canadian Senate and the House of Lords affect legislation only in rare cases. At most, they can hold things up a bit or force minor tweaks. They aren't capable of obstruction anywhere near the level of the US Senate.

Finally, we'd still likely be a monarchy, under the rule of Elizabeth II, and constitutional monarchy is the best system of government known to man. Generally speaking, in a parliamentary system, you need a head of state who is not the prime minister to serve as a disinterested arbiter when there are disputes about how to form a government — say, if the largest party should be allowed to form a minority government or if smaller parties should be allowed to form a coalition, to name a recent example from Canada. That head of state is usually a figurehead president elected by the parliament (Germany, Italy) or the people (Ireland, Finland), or a monarch. And monarchs are better.

Monarchs are more effective than presidents precisely because they lack any semblance of legitimacy. It would be offensive for Queen Elizabeth or her representatives in Canada, New Zealand, etc. to meddle in domestic politics. Indeed, when the governor-general of Australia did so in 1975 it set off a constitutional crisis that made it clear such behavior would not be tolerated. But figurehead presidents have some degree of democratic legitimacy and are typically former politicians. That enables a greater rate of shenanigans — like when Italian President Giorgio Napolitano schemed, successfully, to remove Silvio Berlusconi as prime minister due at least in part to German Chancellor Angela Merkel's entreaties to do so.

Napolitano is the rule, rather than the exception. Oxford political scientists Petra Schleiter and Edward Morgan-Jones have found that presidents, whether elected indirectly by parliament or directly by the people, are likelier to allow governments to change without new elections than monarchs are. In other words, they're likelier to change the government without any democratic input at all. Monarchy is, perhaps paradoxically, the more democratic option.
 
Nice to see my brainfart causing such a large discussion.

I think that, like it or not, America-lite is how most people view us, a natural consequence of sitting on top of the US.

It is quite hard for non-Canadians (Americans often assume you're from New York or Boston or something) to tell the difference - culturally, Canada takes its cues from down south.

A consequence is that others view our politics the same way, but less dysfunctional; the NDP is therefore seen as a radical left fringe party, when it regularly attracts 30 - 30%of popular support.

Anyways, I digress.

We are indeed digressing, so I will try not to expand the tangent further......

But I would point out in the above that, said fringe party won a majority government in the most conservative province we have, Alberta; and that party is currently leading in the provincial polls again.

It has also been the government, at least once, in six provinces.

Not quite so fringe, below the federal level.
 
But aren't we? JJ does need to be taken with a pinch a salt, to a greater or lesser extent, no doubt. But. He can be quite amusing especially when bursting American ideas of Canada that have no grounding in reality.
It is incredibly dismissive to say that Canadians and Americans are culturally identical. We are very similar in all the superficial ways, but there are some historical reasons why differences have developed over time. I mean, you could poll Canadians and Americans on any number of political topics and it is clear we are not in sync. I'd say we're not more similar than Austrians and Germans. Cousins but not identical twins.
 
Similar in many ways, yes; identical, no.
There is still something, agreed. But having lived overseas I discovered the small differences often pale beside the large similarities. Trying to explain, for example, to a foreign colleague that Canadian football is distinct because.....or that we are distinct because our Thanksgiving is in early October, then comprehending that Thanksgiving is a North American thing, etc. I am mindful of identifying what makes us distinct and unique in N America, - those things that have no equivalent down south or are irreplaceably idiosyncratic to our own experience, rather than being a maple leaf cover version of the American original. There are still a few things though, homogenisation isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion if we don't wish so.

I guess a real indicator is meeting North Americans abroad - how recognisable are we to each other? Sort of yes....often, but not always. I guess like Kiwis to Aussies.

I think Canadian politics is slowly reflecting America more than historically so. I genuinely have no recollection, growing up in 80/90s, of guns or abortion being issues, for example. Why bother when we had much more existential questions! Cultural issues are certainly becoming more important across most English speaking nations, though.
 
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There is still something, agreed. But having lived overseas I discovered the small differences often pale beside the large similarities. Trying to explain, for example, to a foreign colleague that Canadian football is distinct because.....or that we are distinct because our Thanksgiving is in early October, then comprehending that Thanksgiving is a North American thing, etc. I am mindful of identifying what makes us distinct and unique in N America, - those things that have no equivalent down south or are irreplaceably idiosyncratic to our own experience, rather than being a maple leaf cover version of the American original. There are still a few things though, homogenisation isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion if we don't wish so.

I guess a real indicator is meeting North Americans abroad - how recognisable are we to each other? Sort of yes....often, but not always. I guess like Kiwis to Aussies.

I think Canadian politics is slowly reflecting America more than historically so. I genuinely have no recollection, growing up in 80/90s, of guns or abortion being issues, for example. Why bother when we had much more existential questions! Cultural issues are certainly becoming more important across most English speaking nations, though.

See this book: https://www.environicsinstitute.org/michael-adams/books/fire-ice

****

Also, Canadian Thanksgiving is a fairly typical fall harvest festival, which is quite common among northern hemisphere nations. They simply have different names for it elsewhere.
American Thanksgiving, however, is tied to ideas of pilgrims and other mythologies never discussed at Canadian Thanksgiving.

****

Really, I don't get this line of thought at all; regardless, we should head back in the direction of the topic of this thread.
 
Looking over at 338 Canada, some interesting projections going on...........

Take a look at Kitchener Centre, where the Lib Candidate is gone.

View attachment 347103
How exactly does 338 Canada put together riding-level projections? As far as I know, living in Kitchener Centre, they have only had one riding-level poll early in the election, and the results were quite suspect.
 
I think Canadian politics is slowly reflecting America more than historically so. I genuinely have no recollection, growing up in 80/90s, of guns or abortion being issues, for example. Why bother when we had much more existential questions! Cultural issues are certainly becoming more important across most English speaking nations, though.

You've got to be kidding - the current policy (nay, legal) vacuum on abortions at the Federal level is very much a hedge by Mulroney in the politics of the late 80s; and guns - do recall ecole polytechnique, the public outcry and policy responses afterwards. I think it might just be that you weren't paying attention, or was expecting the Canadian discussion on these issues at the time to reflect a US level of vitriol (which it never did, even now, thankfully).

AoD
 
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How exactly does 338 Canada put together riding-level projections? As far as I know, living in Kitchener Centre, they have only had one riding-level poll early in the election, and the results were quite suspect.

Their methodology can be found here:


The narrow specifics of what weight is given to what factor would proprietary info, I believe.

****

I should add, they're are an awful lot of riding polls that are not public.

Party's commission these in-house.

Sometimes, a site like 338 may have access to some of them.
 

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