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407 Rail Freight Bypass/The Missing Link

The low hanging fruit line (and you are not the first person to use it so not a shot at you) bugs me greatly.........we are constantly adding service where we can rather than where we should and it is because of the "low hanging fruit".

I just have no idea how you can believe, however, that Unionville and Barrie lines offer more opportunity for counterflow ridership than a line that goes right into and through the heart of Mississauga.......it just makes no sense....just as prioritzing 400 and 404 congestion relief over 401 congestion relief.

If GO had started with a clean slate and had available to them unlimitted access to the corridors it uses today....I have no doubt the first one to be up and running with full day service and frequent off peak service and 7 day a week service would have been Milton.....not because of the end point that is Milton.....but because it serves the heart of the largest and most economically diverse of our 905 municipalities.

If (and it is a big if) that line can get up to full service without the bypass by "simply" laying 2 more tracks in the existing corridor...that should be GO's number 1 priority over everything else they have going.....and I say this as someone who has only ridden a train in that corridor 1 time in my life (ie. it does not serve me)....it is just dripping with potential.

While I agree with adding 2 more tracks to Milton Line, remember that these are CP tracks and we already ran into this issue in the past

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ontario...-rail-of-overcharging-transit-agency-1.620439

Another issue is that when you pay CN or CP to add more tracks, they can use them for their freight, and freight traffic then increases.

There has to be some very strict negotiations between CP and Metrolinx for the added trackage to the Milton Line not being a boondoggle.

It will not be a simple procedure like the Barrie and Stouffville double tracking, it will be wrought with red tape.

Not saying it shouldn't be done, but that it will take years just for the planning and negotiations.
 
While I agree with adding 2 more tracks to Milton Line, remember that these are CP tracks and we already ran into this issue in the past

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ontario...-rail-of-overcharging-transit-agency-1.620439

Another issue is that when you pay CN or CP to add more tracks, they can use them for their freight, and freight traffic then increases.

There has to be some very strict negotiations between CP and Metrolinx for the added trackage to the Milton Line not being a boondoggle.

It will not be a simple procedure like the Barrie and Stouffville double tracking, it will be wrought with red tape.

Not saying it shouldn't be done, but that it will take years just for the planning and negotiations.
I acknowledged that I do not think it is as easy as some suggest....I just take great exception to the notion that trains to Unionville and Barrie should be a higher priority or that they will provide more benefit.
 
The low hanging fruit line (and you are not the first person to use it so not a shot at you) bugs me greatly.........we are constantly adding service where we can rather than where we should and it is because of the "low hanging fruit".

No argument on that point. ML is badly bungling its capital program by following the path of least resistance, adding dribs and drabs where it’s easy but not tackling the long lead time and capacity-choking items first. The Mother-of-all-DBFOM strategy seems to double down on this.... now ML is leaving destiny design decisions to the eventual vendor. The one gutsy choke-removing initiative they attempted - Davenport - blew up in their face, and the blowback plus the move to P3 has pushed that effort out by years. Don’t let me get started on GTS. Lately, I am really getting interested in Scarboro Jct as an iceberg waiting for its fast ship. On the positive side, USRC is (mostly) falling into order, but that’s just treading water as service is added. How long until we need four tracks on LSW to Port Credit and beyond? None of these lines has a clear, must-do-x-by-when growth statement or investment plan.

I just have no idea how you can believe, however, that Unionville and Barrie lines offer more opportunity for counterflow ridership than a line that goes right into and through the heart of Mississauga.......it just makes no sense....just as prioritzing 400 and 404 congestion relief over 401 congestion relief.

We are discussing this without any data, other than the undisputable ridership at peak. That speaks to the line’s service area as a huge bedroom community for downtown Toronto workers. My view of Mississauga’s regional needs looks to other initiatives and not RER alone. When you look at investment in the busway and Hurontario LRT, we can’t say Mississauga isn’t getting its share.

I put some faith in The Big Move document as a well-reasoned, fact based strategy. There must be a reason (and supporting data) why Milton has never played in that planning. Certainly, ML does not have an anti-Peel/Halton bias. GTS and LSW are pretty high priority. Those Regions have had the opportunity to lobby for higher priority for 2WAD for Milton, and while they have done so they have not asked for other things (eg Hurontario LRT or the Busway) to be deferred in favour of Milton GO. And thankfully, they haven’t cried “you love us less than our siblings” the way Scarborough pols have to try to get everything done at once.

I suspect the Big Move relied on some underlying metric along the lines of “percent of GTA residents within x km of a heavy transit line”. If you put priority on Milton over the north/east lines, that statistic doesn’t go up because Hurontario and the Busway are already credited. Whereas if you defer Barrie and Unionville, the metric goes down. That’s both a political and a technical way of saying, the rich mustn’t get richer and Barrie deserves its share... which yes works against build transit where it should go, but I’m OK with that. We are wasting enough money making Scarberians feel the love.

When I ride Milton (admittedly only once in a while), one thing that strikes me is how many riders now get on and off at Kipling instead of continuing downtown. I am getting more and more convinced that other solutions to cross Mississauga travel, such as extending Line 2, and expediting BRT on Dundas, may be a better answer to that rich ridership potential than RER. The busway terminates badly, at Renforth....maybe a more elegant connection to the city eg Line 2 would help. Don’t assume that the off peak, 2 way riders all want to go downtown just because the day workers do.

And lastly, I still believe that the price of adding 2 tracks to the Galt Sub is really, really huge. If we put that on the table and then had to agree on what needs to be deferred to cover that cost.....would we still feel the passion? Just a hunch.

- Paul
 
^the only thing I recall from reading the Big Move all those years ago was that it had a heavy emphasis on density (combined employment and residential) and its mantra that density drives ridership....I remember that as it gave great hope to everyone served by the, then, Georgetown GO corridor because (very surprisingly) it declared that of all the existing transit corridors in the GTHA it had the 2nd highest combined density (2nd to the BD subway...which also was a surprise).

The fact that those two corridors have seen next to no expansion of services in the years since then was a factor in me losing faith in our ability to ever move to "fact/evidence based transit planning"

this comment is particularly disturbing.

we can’t say Mississauga isn’t getting its share.

who decides "share" and why is it at all relevant?

We should be solving problems not divying up some notional funding pie in some fabrication of an "equitable" fashion.
 
who decides "share" and why is it at all relevant?

We should be solving problems not divying up some notional funding pie in some fabrication of an "equitable" fashion.

Well, Scarborough is saying that.... some of them, anyways... it’s a touchy point, so perhaps I ought not to have said it like that....but some level of political sharing the wealth is reality. But I meant that more in the sense that Mississauga is seeing a transit network fall into place irrespective of the Milton line. Barrie and Unionville are creating backbones where little other than highways exist. Putting those areas “on the grid” has a value beyond absolute ridership numbers.

- Paul
 
I bet milton would be as busy as lakeshore with off peak and late night service. all the lines need it, including richmond hill.

Look, we all know that the Lakeshore West line's off peak usage gets "goosed" a bit people nearer, both, the Kitchener and Milton corridors....we just don't know by how much.....but it is safe to say that if those two corridors were, today, also offering 30 minute peak service like LSW does...LSW would lose riders.

We just don't know for sure but I agree with you....if you asked someone with some transit knowledge to look at a map of the GTA and the various land uses and asked them which GO line would have the higher ridership (assuming equal service levels) i think the answer would be Milton.
 
We are discussing this without any data, other than the undisputable ridership at peak. That speaks to the line’s service area as a huge bedroom community for downtown Toronto workers. My view of Mississauga’s regional needs looks to other initiatives and not RER alone. When you look at investment in the busway and Hurontario LRT, we can’t say Mississauga isn’t getting its share.

I put some faith in The Big Move document as a well-reasoned, fact based strategy. There must be a reason (and supporting data) why Milton has never played in that planning. Certainly, ML does not have an anti-Peel/Halton bias. GTS and LSW are pretty high priority. Those Regions have had the opportunity to lobby for higher priority for 2WAD for Milton, and while they have done so they have not asked for other things (eg Hurontario LRT or the Busway) to be deferred in favour of Milton GO. And thankfully, they haven’t cried “you love us less than our siblings” the way Scarborough pols have to try to get everything done at once.

I suspect the Big Move relied on some underlying metric along the lines of “percent of GTA residents within x km of a heavy transit line”. If you put priority on Milton over the north/east lines, that statistic doesn’t go up because Hurontario and the Busway are already credited. Whereas if you defer Barrie and Unionville, the metric goes down. That’s both a political and a technical way of saying, the rich mustn’t get richer and Barrie deserves its share... which yes works against build transit where it should go, but I’m OK with that. We are wasting enough money making Scarberians feel the love.

When I ride Milton (admittedly only once in a while), one thing that strikes me is how many riders now get on and off at Kipling instead of continuing downtown. I am getting more and more convinced that other solutions to cross Mississauga travel, such as extending Line 2, and expediting BRT on Dundas, may be a better answer to that rich ridership potential than RER. The busway terminates badly, at Renforth....maybe a more elegant connection to the city eg Line 2 would help. Don’t assume that the off peak, 2 way riders all want to go downtown just because the day workers do.

And lastly, I still believe that the price of adding 2 tracks to the Galt Sub is really, really huge. If we put that on the table and then had to agree on what needs to be deferred to cover that cost.....would we still feel the passion? Just a hunch.

- Paul

Not quite sure how Mississauga has morphed into a huge bedroom community, considering more trips are going into Mississauga than out of it.

And I still cannot comprehend how having the most peak ridership doesn't translate into daytime ridership potential.

Have you ever ridden the GO buses that travel the Milton corridor during the hours the trains don't run? Again, there's probably more on Milton than any of the other corridors. So I'd say there's a huge amount of untapped potential.

As for why Milton never shows up on any plans, it seems pretty obvious that the blame lies on CP. Although I dispute blaming CP, considering how small they are in comparison to CN.

It seems to me that no one really supports RER in Mississauga due to the CP issue, but no one wants to support subways to Mississauga either.

So no progress happens (except a lightly-used busway; I wonder what the ridership numbers are versus the expectations). Hurontario is definitely an important corridor. But still not sure if it should have been prioritzed over the east-west connection to the subway. Somehow York has figured out that prioritizing subway connections is important. Mississauga is too far up its own ass to figure that out.
 
No argument on that point. ML is badly bungling its capital program by following the path of least resistance, adding dribs and drabs where it’s easy but not tackling the long lead time and capacity-choking items first. The Mother-of-all-DBFOM strategy seems to double down on this.... now ML is leaving destiny design decisions to the eventual vendor. The one gutsy choke-removing initiative they attempted - Davenport - blew up in their face, and the blowback plus the move to P3 has pushed that effort out by years. Don’t let me get started on GTS. Lately, I am really getting interested in Scarboro Jct as an iceberg waiting for its fast ship. On the positive side, USRC is (mostly) falling into order, but that’s just treading water as service is added. How long until we need four tracks on LSW to Port Credit and beyond? None of these lines has a clear, must-do-x-by-when growth statement or investment plan.



We are discussing this without any data, other than the undisputable ridership at peak. That speaks to the line’s service area as a huge bedroom community for downtown Toronto workers. My view of Mississauga’s regional needs looks to other initiatives and not RER alone. When you look at investment in the busway and Hurontario LRT, we can’t say Mississauga isn’t getting its share.

I put some faith in The Big Move document as a well-reasoned, fact based strategy. There must be a reason (and supporting data) why Milton has never played in that planning. Certainly, ML does not have an anti-Peel/Halton bias. GTS and LSW are pretty high priority. Those Regions have had the opportunity to lobby for higher priority for 2WAD for Milton, and while they have done so they have not asked for other things (eg Hurontario LRT or the Busway) to be deferred in favour of Milton GO. And thankfully, they haven’t cried “you love us less than our siblings” the way Scarborough pols have to try to get everything done at once.

I suspect the Big Move relied on some underlying metric along the lines of “percent of GTA residents within x km of a heavy transit line”. If you put priority on Milton over the north/east lines, that statistic doesn’t go up because Hurontario and the Busway are already credited. Whereas if you defer Barrie and Unionville, the metric goes down. That’s both a political and a technical way of saying, the rich mustn’t get richer and Barrie deserves its share... which yes works against build transit where it should go, but I’m OK with that. We are wasting enough money making Scarberians feel the love.

When I ride Milton (admittedly only once in a while), one thing that strikes me is how many riders now get on and off at Kipling instead of continuing downtown. I am getting more and more convinced that other solutions to cross Mississauga travel, such as extending Line 2, and expediting BRT on Dundas, may be a better answer to that rich ridership potential than RER. The busway terminates badly, at Renforth....maybe a more elegant connection to the city eg Line 2 would help. Don’t assume that the off peak, 2 way riders all want to go downtown just because the day workers do.

And lastly, I still believe that the price of adding 2 tracks to the Galt Sub is really, really huge. If we put that on the table and then had to agree on what needs to be deferred to cover that cost.....would we still feel the passion? Just a hunch.

- Paul
Mississauga a bedroom community? That statement alone tells me that you have never even been to Mississauga and renders all of your points mute.
 
Mississauga a bedroom community? That statement alone tells me that you have never even been to Mississauga and renders all of your points mute.

Mississauga contains numerous bedroom communities. By majority land use, I think it's a safe description.

Toronto is much the same. Heck even the dense stuff like St. James Town, City Place, Fort York, and Liberty Village operate primarily as bedroom communities.

Very few neighbourhoods in GTA are mixed use.
 
Very few neighbourhoods in GTA are mixed use.
This is something that Toronto is not 'doing right'. This isn't the string to discuss this, but I look forward to discussing this further in another string. NYC, Vancouver, SF, many world cities are now returning to 'mixed zoning'...even in the same building!

Quick reference here:
Engines of Opportunity Reinvigorating New York City’s Manufacturing Zones for the 21st Century
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...b3/1434678139251/Industrial+zoning+report.pdf

Recommendation 3.

Residential/
Commercial/
Light Industrial
Mixed Use Zones
Pg 35
 
While we wait for news on the Bypass (ie name of the Technical Advisor, EA timeline, indication on if the new government will even go ahead with this), this article caught my eye. Not directly related to the Bypass of course but indirectly related.

July 11, 2018 6:43 am
CN Rail to invest $315M to upgrade Ontario operations

TORONTO – CN Rail says it plans to invest about $315 million in Ontario this year to expand and strengthen the company’s rail network across the province.

The company says planned projects include upgrades at CN’s intermodal terminal in Brampton northwest of Toronto – the company’s largest such facility – and the construction of a new train passing siding east of Sioux Lookout.
 
While we wait for news on the Bypass (ie name of the Technical Advisor, EA timeline, indication on if the new government will even go ahead with this), this article caught my eye. Not directly related to the Bypass of course but indirectly related.
I think we are waiting for a few things in advance of the list of things you put in parenthesis.
 
^ True, just meant as examples. Although the only other big thing I can think of is the Legal Agreement. I got the impression, and could me mistaken in my speculation, that the work of the Technical Advisor and EA was going to commence and take place in parallel to the legal discussions. That seems to me to be the case given the GO COO mentioned at the April 20th townhall how often (recently) he was in Montreal (at CN HQ).
 

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