401 Widening: Hespeler to Halton

[junctionist]

Not the way I see it; Ontario's highway improvements are slow too. Too bad it is developing like the way US is right now...

Perhaps it's just my imagination, but it seems like highways have ballooned vastly out of proportion to transit in the process demonstrating how inefficient they are with land use. And we have a large amount of sprawl to show for it. The 401 and 400 at their widest points are amazingly large compared to our transit systems which always leave one thinking of how much worse our transit options are compared with a diverse group of other cities' systems.

 

[hbl33]

Perhaps it's just my imagination, but it seems like highways have ballooned vastly out of proportion to transit in the process demonstrating how inefficient they are with land use. And we have a large amount of sprawl to show for it. The 401 and 400 at their widest points are amazingly large compared to our transit systems which always leave one thinking of how much worse our transit options are compared with a diverse group of other cities' systems.

And that is quite resembling to what Interstate systems are like. Vast choices of highway access (I-20,I-75,I-85, branch routes, and voila! Atlanta has its own 400, 401, 403, 410, etc). Lack of transit selections. Look @ MARTA to ATL's vast network of highways that surround the city and the suburbs. Very disproportionate. Although GTA's highway network is much smaller and developed much slower than ATL, Over-bulging 400/401/403 is as bad as having too many highways at once.

 

[TOareaFan]

Cambridge to Toronto, make it a flat $100/mth.

While, say, yonge and King to, say, yonge and eg is $109 (and going up) per month? Doesn't distance have a cost?

 

[Paleo]

Here's my thoughts:
1. Expand the 401 like the MTO wants.
2. Build the highway bypasses, Cambridge to Geulph, Brampton, Vaughn, etc. The 401 is over-congested because many are using it to get over and up on other busy highways.
2. Build dedicated commuter rail lines, completely bypassing the freight infrastructure.
2. Decrease the cost of transit - i.e. rather than $500/mth to travel from Cambridge to Toronto, make it a flat $100/mth.

I seriously hope not. The government doesn't need to pay people even more money to live even further away from where they work.

 

[Therion]

Adding lanes never works for very long. Traffic follows increased capacity. Urbandreamer is not wrong... if the 401 gets expanded, the entire corridor to Cambridge will look like the Milton-Mississauga stretch. Endless rows of factories, warehouses and big box stores. A total and utter waste of land resources.

 

[salmonz]

I seriously hope not. The government doesn't need to pay people even more money to live even further away from where they work.

It's about economics.

Cambridge to Toronto:
Toyota Yaris @ City Hwy Tank Fuel Type 8.1 6.7 42 Regular
Distance: 202.7 km
Fuel Used: 14 L
Price of Gas: 96.1 cents/litre

Cost/Roundtrip by car: $13.48
Gas cost/month (assuming 20 business days): $269.60

Now you can't consider capital costs of the car, orelse you need to factor in the capital expenses of the transit system.

By comparison, Union to Barrie (approx 96km) is $346.00/mth for GO.

For those comparison using the TTC from Union to Yonge/Eg would probably be paying $109 for more than 40 uses per month, I think the margin is around 48+ per metropass holder. Frankly, the TTC is waaay overpriced. So going 5km 48+ times per month is a rip off compared to the distance GO goes - but GO riders can only realistically use the system twice in one day, compared to TTC users using the system 2-5 times a day, including weekends.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

Adding lanes never works for very long. Traffic follows increased capacity. Urbandreamer is not wrong... if the 401 gets expanded, the entire corridor to Cambridge will look like the Milton-Mississauga stretch. Endless rows of factories, warehouses and big box stores. A total and utter waste of land resources.

Cambridge looked like that before Mississauga did. Hespeler Road was a retail strip when Hurontario was still lined with farms, and the land south of the 401 near Hespeler Road, Franklin Boulevard, and Townline Road has been lined with factories and warehouses since the 80s. It's been expanded a bit, but there's nothing new under the sun out our way. The big box development right at the 401 was going to be a mall and conference centre when we moved here from Mississauga; if Eatons hadn't collapsed they might have built it--instead they renovated and expanded the existing hovel down the street and Wally World moved in.

Waterloo Region already has plans in the works for urbanizing Hespeler Road; Cambridge just has to rezone for it to happen (and God only knows when that will happen; even our current mayor can't let that road stay like that forever).

I do like the plan for a Highway 6 bypass connecting the Hanlon to 6 South. That stretch through Morriston is more deadly than the 7% drop closer to Hamilton. That's been a long time coming, no matter how anti-highway you are. The core/collectors stretch is a bit much in my opinion, though; it's not that bad yet.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Cost/Roundtrip by car: $13.48
Gas cost/month (assuming 20 business days): $269.60

You have neglected to consider parking costs. Which would push the car roundtrip price up significantly. It can't be assumed that everyone has free parking at their destination, especially if it is downtown.

 

[salmonz]

You have neglected to consider parking costs. Which would push the car roundtrip price up significantly. It can't be assumed that everyone has free parking at their destination, especially if it is downtown.

You're correct I didn't include pricing for parking.

*Cost Analysis for Car vs GO Transit from Cambridge to Downtown Toronto*

Here's a cost analysis of a 50 week commute with only operating expenses (cost of car not included - but oil changes and licencing fees are, I included $170/mth parking fee 12 months a year ):

Gasoline $1,685.00
Parking $2,040.00
Insurance $1,153.85
Oil Change $230.77
Licences $96.15
Total $5,205.77

Trips 500.00
Cost/Trip $10.41


GO TRANSIT
Operating $300,184,000.00
Passengers 50,000,000.00
Cost/Passenger $6.00

On average, the GO wins compared to the car.


Here's a cost analysis of a 50 week commute including reasonable expenses CAPITAL and OPERATING combined.

CAR
Car $3,461.54
Gasoline $1,685.00
Parking $2,040.00
Insurance $1,153.85
Oil Change $230.77
Licences $96.15
Total $8,667.31

Capital $3,461.54
Operating $5,205.77
Total $8,667.31

Trips 500.00
Cost/Trip $17.33


GO TRANSIT
Capital $605,401,000.00
Operating $300,184,000.00
Total $905,585,000.00

Passengers 50,000,000.00
Cost/Passenger $18.11

On average, the car wins compared to GO.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ it may have been covered somewhere else but what does the capital cost represent?

in the case of the car you have used $3,461.54 and for GO you have used $605,401,000.00

What are those numbers?

 

[salmonz]

^ it may have been covered somewhere else but what does the capital cost represent?

in the case of the car you have used $3,461.54 and for GO you have used $605,401,000.00

What are those numbers?

A 500 trip portion of the $605M capital cost for GO translates into $6044.01 ($605M/50M*500 trips) compared to $3,461.54 for the car. Capital costs cover new infrastructure and maintaining existing infrastructure. Without it trains, bridges, rail, stations, yards, offices, computer systems, signaling, etc. wouldn't exist. This is relavent to the equation because we all pay income taxes, property taxes, and development charges.

 

[Translude15]

Someone, please fire this man right now!

This is yet another problem that could quite easily be solved by better rail transit. Go service to Kitchener-Waterloo and an improved Milton Line would both make this problem almost nonexistent. If they have more future capacity concerns, just upgrade the transit instead. There's no justification for this, and it's another so-called "good" project that'll just encourage sprawl like no tomorrow.

Second_in_pie, I've missioned up to Barrie using the GO a few times this year, and I will say right now I would seriously consider shooting myself in the face if I ever had to commute such a distance (about 96 km) day in and day out. It's an hour and a half each way, and by the time the train had reached Barrie, there was a minute amount of people left on it. Extending GO service to K-W would cause MORE grievances to people in my opinion, and would not offer a viable transportation alternative. Put in a high speed rail link, and heck yes people would use it, but only God knows when a project of that standard will be built. (If ever) That's why people drive. It's faster (most of the time) and by far more convenient for people's various schedules.

 

[dunkalunk]

Part of the Kitchener GO extension is to double VIA's service on the north mainline from 3 to 6 trains per direction per day (personally, I'd like to see more, but its what we're getting). There is also no reason why GO should not be providing express service on their lines either. The trick is getting the VIA trip closer to an hour between Kitchener and Toronto through track improvement, have all day local GO service on the Georgetown Line, and get Presto implemented across the GTA as well as in Waterloo region and Guelph in order to facilitate transfers (it would be foolish not to have Presto integrated into GRT by the time LRT arrives)

The widening of the 401 through this area is something that needs to be put under further study and may just be needed, however, absolutely no new transportation corridor should be carved through the escarpment unless it is a rail corridor. There is a huge public transit deficit in this country that needs to be addressed.

 

[Translude15]

Part of the Kitchener GO extension is to double VIA's service on the north mainline from 3 to 6 trains per direction per day (personally, I'd like to see more, but its what we're getting). There is also no reason why GO should not be providing express service on their lines either. The trick is getting the VIA trip closer to an hour between Kitchener and Toronto through track improvement, have all day local GO service on the Georgetown Line, and get Presto implemented across the GTA as well as in Waterloo region and Guelph in order to facilitate transfers (it would be foolish not to have Presto integrated into GRT by the time LRT arrives)

The widening of the 401 through this area is something that needs to be put under further study and may just be needed, however, absolutely no new transportation corridor should be carved through the escarpment unless it is a rail corridor. There is a huge public transit deficit in this country that needs to be addressed.

Good on VIA and to GO to attempt some improvements within these transportation corridors, but as you said, much more could be achieved. I did the drive from Toronto to London this past Friday, and the traffic was quite brutal on the QEW from Mississauga. Me and my acquaintance predicted (and were correct), that it would remain stop and go all the way up towards Hamilton. We rumbled our way up Trafalgar Rd. to the 401, and although not nearly as bad as the QEW, the 401 was running thick from Milton well past K-W. I don't see the proportions of commuters shifting from current standards. As these outskirt regions grow, I would say current commute trends and proportions remain the same. Sure, improve the rail links, but don't turn a blind eye to the widening of the 401 (which is definitely needed), or the possibility of a new highway segment to bypass the 401.

 

[dunkalunk]

Also, keep in mind that the further west you go, the less Toronto-centric commuting patterns get. For example, most of the people commuting to Guelph come from KW and vice-versa. Few people except from students would ride the GO line along its entire length from Kitchener to Union Station when there is already paralell VIA service. But its local connections along the lines that would make service worthwhile and usable as well as negate some of the need to expand highways or build new ones.