2023 Toronto Mayoral by-election

[DSC]

Okay, but by Canadian standards her party is still far Left

You started this silly meander by saying CISIS would be watching Chow because 'she's far Left". You probably need to turn down the hysteria and return to Planet Earth.

 

[Fresco]

You started this silly meander by saying CISIS would be watching Chow because 'she's far Left". You probably need to turn down the hysteria and return to Planet Earth

Not being hysterical at all. You're the one who seems offended by my post(s).
Try to debate politics without making ad hominem attacks (if you can)

 

[Northern Light]

Poll is out.

I find those numbers for Bailao suspect. Should they turn out to have some validity it would mean literally every other pollster has been completely wrong.

 

[zang]

Are you saying because Chow is of Chinese descent she cannot be criticized??

Implying she's under the influence of the PRC is not just "criticism".

All I've said is if Vincent Ke was being watched by CSIS[…]

Ke was born in the PRC; and has known connections to the CCP.

Chow was born in British Hong Kong and has zero known connections to the CCP.

[…] you can bet Chow will be as well.
This is what CSIS does. Its their job

No it's not. CSIS' job is protecting Canadian citizens from foreign attacks and influence. Perhaps you're mistaking CSIS for 1960's CIA? Secretly spying on Asian Canadian politicians with zero reason would be criminal.

And because I need to say this yet again, British Hong Kong ≠ PRC.

 

[zang]

If you go read my post again, I said NDP was far Left of all the major CDN parties, which is what they are.
Link: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/2023-toronto-mayoral-by-election.34980/post-1956300

Again with "far left". What exists between the centre and just regular left?

 

[Fresco]

Implying she's under the influence of the PRC is not just "criticism".



Ke was born in the PRC; and has known connections to the CCP.

Chow was born in British Hong Kong and has zero known connections to the CCP.



No it's not. CSIS' job is protecting Canadian citizens from foreign attacks and influence. Perhaps you're mistaking CSIS for 1960's CIA? Secretly spying on Asian Canadian politicians with zero reason would be criminal.

And because I need to say this yet again, British Hong Kong ≠ PRC.

I never implied Chow is corrupt or thats she's coontrolled by the CCP.

All I said was if Vincent Ke was being watched, and since his position is (or was) a lot less important than Chow's is (or will be if she's elected), its only logical for CSIS to keep an eye on her.

Especially since she's NDP

 

[Fresco]

Again with "far left". What exists between the centre and just regular left?

Liberal party

 

[zang]

Some of those are arguable even at that end, i.e. more "fringe" than "left" per se--APP more like "Green, only re animals"; and Marijuana & PLC having more natural affinity w/libertarian or Bernierite forces.

I was primarily going by what conservatives consider left-wing policies and politics. Social libertarians are often rejected by the fiscal libertarians who tend to lean heavily to the authoritarian side.

But of course, keep in mind that those screaming out "NDP = far left" (particularly common in Sun/Post-type media) are prone to Overton-window-shifting so that hard right political forces are the "true" moderates.

Oh for sure. The NDP is further to the right than most of the *centrist* parties in Europe.

Those interested might want to take a look at Political Compass' polling, and where our parties sit:

The Political Compass

The Political Compass: a 2-dimensional typology of political opinions

www.politicalcompass.org

And note that's from 2021; before PPC-courting Polievre took power.

 

[zang]

I find those numbers for Bailao suspect. Should they turn out to have some validity it would mean literally every other pollster has been completely wrong.

As I joked about before; I think it's being done to intentionally position Bailão as the runner up/first loser. Why? I have an inkling she's gonna make a Federal run.

 

[zang]

Liberal party

Yeah, the Liberals have been consistently centre-right since the 1980s. Their policies were far more left-leaning under Trudeau's father.

 

[zang]

I never implied Chow is corrupt or thats she's coontrolled by the CCP.

So why bring it up at all then?

All I said was if Vincent Ke was being watched, and since his position is (or was) a lot less important than Chow's is (or will be if she's elected), its only logical for CSIS to keep an eye on her.

You're shovelling more BS into the engine of bigotry you're driving down the track here.

As of right now, she's a private citizen. Why does CSIS need to keep an eye on her and not keep an eye on China and their overall influence? Or is this just about keeping an eye on Asian politicians?

Especially since she's NDP

"Especially since she's NDP"?

Yeah, what does that have to do with *anything*?

 

[concrete_and_light]

Especially since she's NDP

Why especially since she's NDP? Because she's ~~far left~~ and that means affinity with "communist" (not really communist, but for the sake of argument, fine) China?

It seems like the CPC has been targeting Liberals more and potentially Conservatives as well. Their strategy if anything seems to be to inflame division between those groups. I'm not sure the NDP is really a focus of theirs from what we've seen, let alone especially so.

If anything I have more faith that Chow would not be influenced than other candidates whether knowingly or unintentionally. For one because I think she has strong principles but also if anything her being born in Hong Kong and having connections there would I think more likely make her anti-CPC than pro and give her a stronger understanding of the CPC's unethical anti-democratic tactics.

And she knows that people will attack her for this kind of stuff and might be more on guard for it vs. other candidates.

Chow is not a "far left" tankie liable to have affinity for the CPC by any means, and I think she has strong personal integrity whatever you think of her politics and ideas.

Of course I'm making assumptions here too. We should probably stop making all these assumptions in this thread in general and some of the assumptions made are really unfounded. There's no reason to be assuming these things and fear mongering about Chow vs. other candidates.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why especially since she's NDP? Because she's ~~far left~~ and that means affinity with "communist" (not really communist, but for the sake of argument, fine) China?

It seems like the CPC has been targeting Liberals more and potentially Conservatives as well. Their strategy if anything seems to be to inflame division between those groups. I'm not sure the NDP is really a focus of theirs from what we've seen, let alone especially so.

If anything I have more faith that Chow would not be influenced than other candidates whether knowingly or unintentionally. For one because I think she has strong principles but also also if anything her being born in Hong Kong and having connections there would I think more likely make her anti-CPC than pro and give her a stronger understanding of the CPC's unethical anti-democratic tactics.

And she knows that people will attack her for this kind of stuff and might be more on guard for it vs. other candidates.

Chow is not a "far left" tankie liable to have affinity for the CPC by any means, and I think she has strong personal integrity whatever you think of her politics and ideas.

Of course I'm making assumptions here too. We should probably stop making all these assumptions in this thread in general and some of the assumptions made are really unfounded. There's no reason to be assuming these things and fear mongering about Chow vs. other candidates.

Though to be honest I wouldn't say she is completely immune either (it's more an issue of the individuals and groups that may contact her - just like they would with any other elected mayor). But by nature her involvement is with municipal politics - the influence wielded there is less critical than either provincial or federal.

AoD

 

[adma]

Oh for sure. The NDP is further to the right than most of the *centrist* parties in Europe.

But also re Overton window-shifting--well, if we have the Liberals as "centre" and NDP "far left", then shouldn't the Conservatives be correspondingly "far right"? Leaving aside the hair-splitting semantics, I'm just addressing relative positioning here. Of course, those responsible for the window-shifting would rather that Conservative be "centre" and Liberal be "moderate left" so as to fulfil the "NDP = far left" framework.

And speaking of "far"-anything and fringiness: let's not forget this statement on Fresco's part...

2023 Toronto Mayoral by-election

It's not unfortunate that John Tory is tied to candidates like Brad Bradford and Ana Bailao. He worked closely with both on council. All three are more middle of the road type of politicians. I could say that if Olivia Chow wins, it will be unfortunate that she will work closely with Josh...

urbantoronto.ca

Advocates for *that* are a fungus on all political forums.

 

[Rainforest]

I find those numbers for Bailao suspect. Should they turn out to have some validity it would mean literally every other pollster has been completely wrong.

Yes, something might be in play here.

In the absence of the second/run-off round, opinion polls function as an informal preliminary round. People who dislike candidate X and want X defeated, are likely to abandon their preferred candidate Y if Y is doing poorly in the polls, and switch to candidate Z if Z is doing well in the polls and they believe Z is better than X.

If all polls are honest, then their reports simply reflect the voter preferences.

However, there will be a temptation to twist a report in order to shape those preferences. Unlikely to defeat X if X is a clear front-runner, but very capable of propping Z over Y and helping Z into the second place.