2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

[Hopkins123]

I'm saying even Doug recognizes the importance of transit in 2018. It's a question of how muhc he builds imo.

Anyone who's even remotely been paying attention should know what Doug Ford's transit priorities for the 416 are:

Better than DRL for downtown, light rail for everywhere else mentality that's plaguing the Liberal Party and its followers of late.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem with the TTC isn’t governance, it’s money. Uploading the TTC without additional funding is just reshuffling the deck chairs. If you want to see how well that will work out, look no further than NYC.

I want to hear specifically if the Province is planning a very substantial permanent funding boost for the TTC. Anything less than that is suspect

Eveerything would move faster regardless.
NYS keeps making cuts because of budgetary issues, so does the MBTA (MA). Ontario wouldn't do that.

Seriously? You do realize that the leader of the Official Opposition is running in a platform of cutting $6 Billion from the budget (and more would need to be cut for his promises to be realistic). Firing literally every single Ontario public worker would not be enough to save that amount of momey. So what makes you so sure that Ontario is immune to transit cuts?

I'm saying even Doug recognizes the importance of transit in 2018. It's a question of how muhc he builds imo.

The context of the conversation was the proposal to upload the TTC to the province. I don’t see how that would help with expansions since uploading the TTC would only affect operations.

Also, thus far I’ve heard no credible plan from
Doug on how he plans to pay for this. He already has an at least $6 Billion hole in his budget. He’s making a lot of promises backed by no credible plans.

 

[syn]

DRL as it's conceptualized now is pretty flawed though. And a beefed up Sheppard Subway could do away with the need for a Finch West LRT, saving between $1.2-$1.5 billion instantly.

We can pick our battles. Leaving Sheppard as a permanent stubway is a wasted opportunity. The dream of getting from Dufferin to McCowan in under 30 minutes via Sheppard is mighty appealing to many potential voters. You may not see it nor agree with that course of action but I would be mightily satisfied if Sheppard + SSE were up and running by 2025. It's what voters at the door are telling the PCs and these same constituents view the Liberals as dishonest and untrustworthy on the file.

The SSE as conceptualized is flawed in virtually every way. The Sheppard Stubway is flawed too.

The DRL as conceptualized is a critical piece of infrastructure that will have excellent ridership from Day 1.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The SSE as conceptualized is flawed in virtually every way. The Sheppard Stubway is flawed too.

The DRL as conceptualized is a critical piece of infrastructure that will have excellent ridership from Day 1.

Your biases are clearly showing. You can't just say that one project is flawless and another is completely flawed. I can think of a bunch of flaws with every plan, including DRL Short)(ie, lack of surface connections, the loss of the 501 and 504, station depth, density along the corridor, actual travel time, commuters' willingness to transfer, the fact that bloor yonge will become an issue again in the future, how many stations are actually present, diverts the problem farther south (people may choose to transfer a bunch from Queen to the Yonge line and take that to Union), where the train yard will be etc)

Likewise, I can see value in the projects you dismissed:
Sheppard (stub) - Shuttles people from don mills, prevents a dozen bus routes running along Sheppard for that 5 km stretch, decreases travel time (when compared to a bus), stimulates growth in north york, away from downtown, allows for transit-oriented development, allows for extensions, capacity available without worry, etc
Sheppard (full) - Connections to Wilson yard - allowing for a more efficient sending out of trains, reducing deadheading, freeing up space at Davisville. Connections to the Spadina Subway from the Yonge Subway - New, more efficient service patterns, redundancy in case of a closure at Eglinton, ability to access the west side of north Toronto from the east (York University). Completion of a line that has space for the future, is fast, stimulates the economy, etc.
SSE - Replaces an aging line, is faster than the aging line, reduces dwell time, removes a transfer, frees up railway corridor for regional express rail, stimulates growth at the STC, decreases trip time for the majority of Line 3 users (most Scarborough residents bus to the STC, and that's why that station alone sees a good 70% of the line's ridership), removes the need for a new or more complicated yard for LRVs/ICTS, will force Bloor Danforth line improvements, serve a mobility hub.

Do I believe the benefits of any of the above projects outweigh those of DRL short, long, and west? Absolutely not, but you cannot say one plan is completely flawed or isn't. Overconfidence in a solution is what got us into this transit mess and if we build an inadequate DRL, then you can say this city will be truthfully f***ed for years to come. If you're going to invest so much money in 1 project, do it right.

 

[syn]

Your biases are clearly showing. You can't just say that one project is flawless and another is completely flawed.

That isn't what I wrote.

 

[Streety McCarface]

That isn't what I wrote.

Maybe not word for word, but you most certainly implied it.

 

[Neutrino]

I can think of a bunch of flaws with every plan, including DRL Short)(ie, lack of surface connections

Well, the short line will connect to the two massive passenger flows on lines 1 and 2 which will generate high ridership even on DRL short. Not surface connections, but the riders will be there. Now, I also think DRL short will be totally inadequate. Yonge will still be overcrowded between Eglinton and Bloor. DRL long will have adequate surface connections. It will connect to the same bus routes that drive the exceptional ridership on line 1.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Well, the short line will connect to the two massive passenger flows on lines 1 and 2 which will generate high ridership even on DRL short. Not surface connections, but the riders will be there. Now, I also think DRL short will be totally inadequate. Yonge will still be overcrowded between Eglinton and Bloor. DRL long will have adequate surface connections. It will connect to the same bus routes that drive the exceptional ridership on line 1.

There's no doubt that it will see usage, but remember, people have the choice of transferring at st george over Bloor Yonge, which, most people don't do because it's a detour that eats into their free time. Surface connections and densification are a must along the DRL for it to be used to its full potential. People forget that the streetcars bring a lot of traffic to the subways, and removing them from the equation is an idiotic risk the TTC would be taking.

 

[MisterF]

Just out of curiosity, where does the idea that he DRL will lack surface connections come from? Unless I'm missing something, it seems like it will have surface connections at every station:

Gerrard: Carlton streetcar and two RER lines
Carlaw: All three Queen streetcar routes
Broadview: Two RER lines, the Broadview streetcar extension and the Eastern bus
Sumach: Queen, King and Cherry streetcars
Sherbourne: Queen streetcars and the Sherbourne bus

The TPAP and preliminary design aren't even complete yet. Where does it say that surface routes won't feed the DRL?

There's no doubt that it will see usage, but remember, people have the choice of transferring at st george over Bloor Yonge, which, most people don't do because it's a detour that eats into their free time. Surface connections and densification are a must along the DRL for it to be used to its full potential. People forget that the streetcars bring a lot of traffic to the subways, and removing them from the equation is an idiotic risk the TTC would be taking.

The fact that St. George is a detour to people coming from the east is why it's not useful as a comparison to the DRL. People coming from the west do use it, which is why it's the second busiest subway station in the city. If a Pape interchange gets the same use as St. George it'll be a huge success. Pape won't be a detour at all; people are riding through it anyway. The DRL will be the most direct way downtown for much of the east and northeast parts of the city.

 

[syn]

View attachment 138794

Maybe not word for word, but you most certainly implied it.

I didn't imply it at all. I simply wrote that it was a critical piece of infrastructure, which it is.

Perhaps you should be concerned about your own bias.

 

[syn]

Confirmation on Ford's 3 stop Scarborough Subway plan:

Doug Ford brings heat but little light in Progressive Conservative budget response

A few years ago when the 3 stop plan was scrapped, the cost was $4 billion...that's why it was eliminated for a $2 billion, one stop solution. That one stop is now nearly $4 billion on it's own (with city staff confirming it could be up to $5 billion). Adding two stops to them mix and you're looking at $5 billion - $6 billion at the very least.

That's the size of Ford's budget hole and would leave virtually no money for anything else. I wouldn't be surprised to hear more 'downtown has enough subways' rhetoric.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wish there was more discussion on transit was managed and funded. The crux of the problem on why we end up with these LRT vs. subway fights or over what to prioritize is in large part funding, and cost escalation caused by delaying construction for decades.

And I continue to stand by my original assertion that the lack of real suburban rail is a huge problem in Toronto. And it's driving demand for subway expansion at the edges of the 416.

I get that Transit City was focused on local transit. I just think it was a mistake to focus on local transit first when the public sees travel time to the core as their major concern. Even a subway extension won't solve that a ton, but unfortunately, they believe that.

 

[nfitz]

Anyone who's even remotely been paying attention should know what Doug Ford's transit priorities for the 416 are.

With the Conservatives running in third place currently in 416, Drug Ford's long history of getting other people to pay his bills, the atrocious lying, and his objection to even grade-separated Vancouver-style Sky Trains ... that what Druggie's 416 priorties are, is sweet Ford all.

Anyone who possibly thinks that the current PC leader is good for transit in Toronto is completely delusional, to the point where we should be genuinely concerned about their actual existence.

Though why anyone doesn't think that the PC polling numbers won't completely tank once the post-leadership polls start coming out, I don't know ...

 

[ssiguy2]

There are many reasons why Ford will not start cancelling projects. First, RER will help people in the city but especially the inner and outer suburbs where Ford needs the votes. Second, there is finally a lot of federal cash at stake and he will not be willing to forgo it. Third, transit is a priority for many even those who don't use it as they too see the value in a robust transit system in such a large and traffic chocked city. Fourth, I think you guys are underestimating Tory and the power he yields in the Tory establishment. Ford would find Tory a formidable opponent and not one he would be willing to take on.

 

[hw621]

There are many reasons why Ford will not start cancelling projects. First, RER will help people in the city but especially the inner and outer suburbs where Ford needs the votes. Second, there is finally a lot of federal cash at stake and he will not be willing to forgo it. Third, transit is a priority for many even those who don't use it as they too see the value in a robust transit system in such a large and traffic chocked city. Fourth, I think you guys are underestimating Tory and the power he yields in the Tory establishment. Ford would find Tory a formidable opponent and not one he would be willing to take on.

Tory has his own battle to fight this year.