2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

[syn]

In the centre OR like the Liberals?
Maybe you are referring to a different generation of Liberals (i.e. maybe Chretien).

The Ontario Liberals were probably the most centrist party running. They were left on social issues, but fiscally they certainly weren't the NDP. A lot of things people had a problem with (privatization of Hydro, use of P3s) are things the Conservatives would've done too.

Ontario, overall, is a fairly progressive place. The Conservatives went decidedly right the previous elections and it did them in. If they go in that direction, they won't last long.

 

[syn]

Or he could be referring to a different generation of PCs.

AoD

Exactly.

At one point, both the PCs and Liberals in Ontario were firmly in the centre. The Province was largely built by Red Tories, who were much closer to the current Liberals than they were to Mike Harris, Hudak or Ford.

 

[BurlOak]

Exactly.

At one point, both the PCs and Liberals in Ontario were firmly in the centre. The Province was largely built by Red Tories, who were much closer to the current Liberals than they were to Mike Harris, Hudak or Ford.

Rae took things far left, Harris corrected by going right, then McGuinty and Wynne progressively kept going left again.

Is was relatively easy for Frost, Robarts, Davis since they had competent, stable predecessors.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Rae took things far left, Harris corrected by going right, then McGuinty and Wynne progressively kept going left again.

Is was relatively easy for Frost, Robarts, Davis since they had competent, stable predecessors.

Frost, Robarts and Davis are far more statist - and in a more revolutionary manner - than the Rae NDP ever was.

AoD

 

[MetroMan]

With the end of Liberal rule the #1 campaign issue and with an extremely unappealing and flawed alternative on the other side, the NDP was still not able to pull it off despite Horwath's very well run campaign.

It really became clear in this election that the NDP brand carries far too much baggage. If I were to advise the NDP on marketing, I would have them rebrand, drop the "New" from their name and go with Democratic Party. The psychological connect with the US party as a governing party would help legitimize the Democrats as a party that can form government. They're now the official opposition to Doug Ford's PCs. They have 4 years to make the case that they're the alternative, instead of a rebuilt Liberal party. Right now, it's Liberal vs Conservative and the natural cadence is to swing between those two. Rebranding, they could make it Democratic vs Conservative. They have a 4 year window to change the paradigm.

 

[APTA-2048]

The Democratic Party has its own baggage.

 

[Northern Light]

This campaign can teach us very little.

Basically, if you run a terrible government, at some point you will be defeated. The longer the defeat is delayed, the harder the fall. By all rights the Liberals should have lost in 1007, 2011, 2014. Each time the PC's didn't run the best campaign and peoples moods changed for the vote. Immediately thereafter, they regretted the choice of Liberal.

This is why most people in this forum deride your posts. Its not a Conservative perspective (small or large C) its that you insist on using hyperbolic, nonsensical language and you quite routinely make statements that are factually inaccurate.

I don't know what motivates you to troll UT but that's what you do.

I personally don't welcome it.

I would urge you to reconsider your time here.

A conservative perspective that's well reasoned, thoughtful, nuanced and not hate or hyperbole filled is useful and I'm happy to have it. My politics being non-partisan and more pragmatic than ideological I might have many sympathies with such a perspective. But as you have fail to offer such..........

 

[Northern Light]

Rae took things far left, Harris corrected by going right, then McGuinty and Wynne progressively kept going left again.

Is was relatively easy for Frost, Robarts, Davis since they had competent, stable predecessors.

This is so completely inaccurate as to be laughable. I think Bob Rae made many mistakes, albeit it, in fairness to him, in economically challenging times with a rookie cabinet.

But to suggest his government was to the left of any Red Tory regime in terms of state expansion or even tax hikes defies both math and common sense.

 

[Northern Light]

With the end of Liberal rule the #1 campaign issue and with an extremely unappealing and flawed alternative on the other side, the NDP was still not able to pull it off despite Horwath's very well run campaign.

It really became clear in this election that the NDP brand carries far too much baggage. If I were to advise the NDP on marketing, I would have them rebrand, drop the "New" from their name and go with Democratic Party. The psychological connect with the US party as a governing party would help legitimize the Democrats as a party that can form government. They're now the official opposition to Doug Ford's PCs. They have 4 years to make the case that they're the alternative, instead of a rebuilt Liberal party. Right now, it's Liberal vs Conservative and the natural cadence is to swing between those two. Rebranding, they could make it Democratic vs Conservative. They have a 4 year window to change the paradigm.

View attachment 146398

The party's name is not its issue.

I agree branding/marketing are part of its problems, though a review of how younger voters cast their ballot, even relative to younger voters in previous elections suggests the baggage of the Rae years is almost gone; those among the electorate for whom it remains a concern are unlikely to change w/e the name or the colour on the sign.

The issue is more one of finding the right platform to compel, the right leader, to fill the hole for that party that clearly is a good chunk of the 905.

They have resolved Brampton, if they could do the same in Mississauga and just a smattering of seats in York/Durham and/or get some of the farm country vote in SW Ontario they could move into full contention for power.

What challenges them in the aforementioned communities is not the name on the sign, its a mixture of the substance on offer and the manner in which it is 'sold'.

 

[Videodrome]

CP24‏Verified account@CP24 15m15 minutes ago
'Canada and the US should be working together to take on the world,' Ford says of the recent trade disputes with Trump.

Doug is a die hard Trump supporter and hadn't denounced the tariffs.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The party's name is not its issue.

I agree branding/marketing are part of its problems, though a review of how younger voters cast their ballot, even relative to younger voters in previous elections suggests the baggage of the Rae years is almost gone; those among the electorate for whom it remains a concern are unlikely to change w/e the name or the colour on the sign.

The issue is more one of finding the right platform to compel, the right leader, to fill the hole for that party that clearly is a good chunk of the 905.

They have resolved Brampton, if they could do the same in Mississauga and just a smattering of seats in York/Durham and/or get some of the farm country vote in SW Ontario they could move into full contention for power.

What challenges them in the aforementioned communities is not the name on the sign, its a mixture of the substance on offer and the manner in which it is 'sold'.

I wouldn't read too much into this support as "buying" into NDP policies in general - it feels a little flash in the pan (depending on how well the Liberals recover)

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wouldn't read too much into this support as "buying" into NDP policies in general - it feels a little flash in the pan (depending on how well the Liberals recover)

AoD

Like with Layton in Ottawa. NDP comes from nowhere, forms the Opposition for one election cycle, then quickly returns to nowhere.

Mind you, had Layton lived things may have been different. But Andrea is no Jack.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Like with Layton in Ottawa. NDP comes from nowhere, forms the Opposition for one election cycle, then quickly returns to nowhere.
Mind you, had Layton lived things may have been different. But Anrea is no Jack.

And we already know the rise isn't some innate like for Andrea Horwath and the NDP - but that it is particular to the nature of this election (unpopular premier and unlikeable front runner)

AoD

 

[TrickyRicky]

I was wrong in thinking that the vote would be suppressed. The vote turn out was actually decent and the public fairly well engaged.

I was also wrong in thinking that the NDP had more support or momentum than they actually did. They way underperformed when I believed they would outperform perhaps challenging to hold the PC government to a minority government (my initial wrong prediction)

The media always claims to be informed and impartial on balance; however, I find this election result another example of highly discrediting analysis.

In the end the PCs won a very conventional majority with wide spread popular support in terms of overall popular support and geographic distribution.

 

[John_Dee]

The Ontario Liberals were probably the most centrist party running. They were left on social issues, but fiscally they certainly weren't the NDP. A lot of things people had a problem with (privatization of Hydro, use of P3s) are things the Conservatives would've done too.

Exactly. This is what "centrism"/neoliberalism is, the process of putting a progressive or liberal façade on a conservative, corporatist economic agenda. People like Obama, Tony Blair, the Clintons, et al use the language and symbolism of progressivism to attack its substance and service the economic powers that be. They may even be sincere when it comes to their social political stands that don't cost money or interfere with business (gay marriage, say), but they're perfectly willing to drop these stances in a heartbeat when they become inconvenient. As we saw repeatedly during Bill "NAFTA/Defence-of-Marriage-Act" Clinton's presidency. Trudeau Junior's one of these creatures as well, and here in Ontario we've had Wynne's snivelling face as our local representative for the past 4 years. Hooray.

Rae took things far left, Harris corrected by going right, then McGuinty and Wynne progressively kept going left again.

Oh, please. Rae certainly did nothing radical when he was in power, quite the contrary. He was a fairly modest social democrat. Timid, even. He was ushered in as Premiere at a bad point for the economy - thanks to Reagan, Thatcher and Mulroney, I might add - and did the best he could with a very bad hand. These continued lies about him single-handedly turning Ontario into a Mad Max-style wasteland are like reading dispatches from Bizarro World. Give it a rest. As for McGuinty and Wynne being even farther to the left than he was, are you %#$@-ing kidding me? Wynne's biggest scandals, i.e. selling off valuable assets to corporate entities for pennies on the dollar, were taken directly from the Tories' playbook. Do you honestly think the PCs wouldn't have sold off Hydro the way she did? Or that they're not going to continue this trend now that they're in charge? And let us not forget that the well-known "far leftist" Caroline Mulroney was up to her elitist neck in the shady Woodbine casino deal.

The Libs and PCs are marching in economic lockstep, whatever their other differences. Don't kind yourself on that.