2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

[narduch]

McLeod is just covering her ass.

Because the next question is always 'who knew about it'. We see that going on in the USA Gymnastics scandal right now.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You miss the essential point. The Public always will reacted subjectively, so be it, were it ever so. I'm talking about the ostensible *leaders* of this nation, of this society, who have a responsibility when talking *legal* issues to include the necessities of process in doing so.

You exactly make my point. This is trial by media from anonymous sources.

Except no, the leaders of the nation (including the individual who was accused) have the responsibility to respond to allegations and not just defer to the legal system as a catch all. Any other option is untenable - like - "suspend your disbelief, let the courts play it out, in the meantime, vote for me in June"? That's not going to fly for *anyone*.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Except no, the leaders of the nation (including the individual who was accused) have the responsibility to respond to allegations and not just defer to the legal system as a catch all.

Make no mistake, my first post in this latest string within the topic surmise was that Brown's *reaction* is what doomed him, not the accusations themselves, albeit the OntCon machinery might state otherwise.

It bodes *extremely poorly* for the leadership of this nation that *any of them* can address this subject without the necessary preface that these are "as yet unproven" allegations. Even the press is being more responsible on this than political leaders themselves.

I'm reminded of a certain crook, thug, bully and cunning deviant who led this nation very effectively for multiple terms:
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

What's notable is that Brown is not only being thrown under the bus, those that couldn't get on the bus to hit him are assembled on the sidewalk to cheer it on. Such cross party solidarity is rare to see.

 

[Admiral Beez]

. Think of Wednesday night as a test - the subject arguably failed it by doing the cut and run. You don't get second chances from a fall like that (and stupidly invited the media to document your cut and run *right at the same time when the expose was on TV*).

I agree. Had he only stood and taken on the accusations. What the women alleged was not a crime, there was no criminal activity, and thus Brown has no means to face these allegations in court. That press conference was his chance to defend himself against these allegations. When I saw him babbling, wavering and then running I thought, Jesus man, grow a spine and stand your ground. When your chief of staff and assistants threatened to resign, fire their asses for disloyalty. The best defence is offence, not grovelling.

Rosie says it best today https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...k-browns-downfall-an-affront-to-fairness.html

I hope Brown sues CTV and these two people for slander. The claim for financial and reputational damage will be huge. And I’d say he has a case. Get Marie Henon to cross examine the three defendants in that slander case, she’ll quickly get to the truth and I wouldn’t be surprised to find a set up of some sort here.

Brown is creepy as hell, and even with Wynne’s terrible history, definitely would have lost due to his unelectablity, but he should have been taken down by the voters, not a pair of anonymous and well timed allegations.

As for me, I’m not voting for Wynne, and downtown always leans left, thus wasting PC votes, so I’m going to vote NDP.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree. Had he only stood and taken on the accusations. What the women alleged was not a crime, there was no criminal activity, and thus Brown has no means to face these allegations in court. That press conference was his chance to defend himself against these allegations. When I saw him babbling, wavering and then running I thought, Jesus man, grow a spine and stand your ground. When your chief of staff and assistants threatened to resign, fire their asses for disloyalty. The best defence is offence, not grovelling.

Rosie says it best today https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...k-browns-downfall-an-affront-to-fairness.html

I hope Brown sues CTV and these two people for slander. The claim for financial and reputational damage will be huge. And I’d say he has a case. Get Marie Henon to cross examine the three defendants in that slander case, she’ll quickly get to the truth and I wouldn’t be surprised to find a set up of some sort here.

Except that going to court has the flip side of having to provide evidence and defend yourself - and if you have done it, it's definitely inviting more trouble on yourself than you have already gotten.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

What the women alleged was not a crime, there was no criminal activity, and thus Brown has no means to face these allegations in court.

Whoa! I researched this last night. Unless he was a parent, (And I think not) he has been alleged to have committed at least one criminal act.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

I hope Brown sues CTV and these two people for slander. The claim for financial and reputational damage will be huge. And I’d say he has a case. Get Marie Henon to cross examine the three defendants in that slander case, she’ll quickly get to the truth and I wouldn’t be surprised to find a set up of some sort here.

Brown is creepy as hell, and even with Wynne’s terrible history, definitely would have lost due to his unelectablity, but he should have been taken down by the voters, not a pair of anonymous and well timed allegations.

Why are you believing Brown over multiple accusers?

 

[steveintoronto]

Except that going to court has the flip side of having to provide evidence and defend yourself - and if you have done it, it's definitely inviting more trouble on yourself than you have already gotten.

I almost added this to the previous short post above, but this demands a separate answer. This is going to be a very interesting point to see what 'shakes out down the line', a subject within itself. It raises a number of troubling issues, legal and moral. More on this later, it will come up in the press.

Why are you believing Brown over multiple accusers?

This is beside the point. "Believe" isn't the issue. Proven accusations are, save for Alvin's point on "the court of public opinion".

You do go right to the heart though of the 'mass hysteria' aspect of this: The power to make an accusation *two* in this case *apparently* without any substantiation proven in a court of law as to its veracity.

Frankly I hope this does go to court, to at least be examined and perhaps further prosecuted by persons much more sensitive and aware of the due process of law. That would be a test of the process as much as the details, something accusations this damaging need in our system of justice.

That Wynne, Horwath and others haven't made this point is troubling in itself. I think they're going to pay a price for not doing so. The days of leaders stating "Beware the Industrial-Military Complex" appear to be long gone. It was the hand that fed, and yet leaders were made of much stronger backbones then.....with a proviso: History is written by the victors.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I generally share steveintoronto's dislike for the mob justice zeitgeist of our time. However, Alvin has a point specific to Brown that he makes his living from his image. Artists, actors, designers, social media stars, journalists etc. if you are making your living from your brand be prepared to take a hit if you are capitalizing on an image that is incongruent with your general behaviour.

I'm going to largely stay away from the sexual misconduct discussions because we don't really know the facts and I don't really know the law. From the general information we know it seems Brown is more of a frat boy who hadn't grown up at the time of the incidents than someone who would be legally convicted of sexual misconduct but the fact remains that he was running for political leadership around his brand and that brand is damaged. There are many paths in life where people don't care if you are a frat boy who never grew up.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You do go right to the heart though of the 'mass hysteria' aspect of this: The power to make an accusation *two* in this case *apparently* without any substantiation proven in a court of law as to its veracity.

Frankly I hope this does go to court, to at least be examined and perhaps further prosecuted by persons much more sensitive and aware of the due process of law. That would be a test of the process as much as the details, something accusations this damaging need in our system of justice.

Not entirely true. CTV has stakes in this if they don't do their research properly - anyone can accuse, but not everyone can get away from factchecking (however imperfect it is) in these cases.

AoD

 

[PinkLucy]

If the allegations are true, it’s not really frat boy behaviour. What frat boy doesn’t drink but hangs around bars where there are underaged girls drinking?

 

[steveintoronto]

Alvin has a point specific to Brown that he makes his living from his image. Artists, actors, designers, social media stars, journalists etc. if you are making your living from your brand be prepared to take a hit if you are capitalizing on an image that is incongruent with your general behaviour.

In this instance, you misread my intent and view. It is *precisely* your point that makes me state as I did yesterday: "Mulroney". And a good part of that is *looks* (as in appearances as much as attraction). It was a huge factor, if polls are correct, for the female vote for Justin. And now he feeds that with his claim for being a "feminist"...all very easy when you 'get the babes', which brings back into play the "creed" (gist) factor which Alvin raised yesterday.

I am concerned with some of Mulroney's public presentations that I've watched, however. She's inconsistent, not with her stance, but with the ability to be a 'firm leader'. Her old-man certainly had it, she may not, to be firm, even when unpopular, in pushing agendas known to be necessary if unpopular. Somehow Justin has that, all the while appearing dapper and privileged. In all fairness, and this is where the gender debate still pivots, that's easier for a man than for a woman in our society. Maggie Thatchers besides. She was incorrigible, but effective, but hardly the stuff of fashion magazine covers. Wynne has been pretty tough in ways, and thus effective, but far too wet when it comes to sticking to her own policy. Her policy is now public opinion polls.

The cache of 'image' is ever important, and if she plays it right, Mulroney could win easily.

If the allegations are true, it’s not really frat boy behaviour.

If anything, Brown was hoping to be a 'frat boy'. His early life issues prevented that, and he's still struggling.

In his defence, (and it doesn't make it right) I'm reminded of the SNL skit on "Be attractive" that was being circulated widely on the web. *Societally* (not legally) Brown's fault wasn't so much that what he may or may not have done was reprehensible, it was that, especially on reflection, it was "unwanted". The 'right guy' would be considered a stud. But the wrong guy is considered 'a creep'. For exactly the same actions...

 

[MetroMan]

Looks like it’s Vic Fedeli. He polled at 4% in the last leadership contest and is as entrenched in the back room dealing as they come. He’s the former Mayor of North Bay, no pull in the urban ridings that the PCs need to make gains in to take power. They picked a reliable Conservative insider. It doesn’t seem like they put thought into winning the actual election.

Ontario Tories, electing Liberals since 2003.

 

[syn]

And so it begins...

This may be nothing more than posturing by MacLeod, but it does nothing to help the party's image.

Tory MPP says campaign staff dismissed Patrick Brown rumours

 

[MetroMan]

And so it begins...

This may be nothing more than posturing by MacLeod, but it does nothing to help the party's image.

Tory MPP says campaign staff dismissed Patrick Brown rumours

Yeah. I’ve been watching for this to happen. Patrick Brown’s staff disowned him so quickly, it’s as if they already knew. This sexual assault scandal is not going away with Brown.