Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[zang]

Are you going it ignore Milton, RH, OL, and countless other projects still have years and billions to go before being ready?

Not at all. In fact, a greater impetus would be placed on getting them ready faster.

Sometimes ripping off the bandaid hurts.

 

[T3G]

So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?

Where does self-awareness and personal responsibility factor into all of this?

All of these arguments can be used just as easily against all the subway extensions to suburbia people keep promoting on here. As well as the GO bus, and every single cross border local transit route. Do I take it you're against them, too?

It doesn't make any sense. If city borders are just arbitrarily drawn lines on a map and we should ignore them when it comes to transit, why is it different when it comes to roads? The GTA is one big economic area, telling people who live outside Toronto, essentially, to get fucked, is not exactly an impressive strategy.

BTW, when it comes to your argument, "So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?", are you for real with this? What exactly do you think every single transit project we've ever built has been? Forget deep suburbia, throwing as much money as possible to make the commute from an hour away easy is the guiding philosophy behind both the farthest extensions of line 1 and line 2. Imagine how much money there would be for God knows what if we'd never bothered to give those dirty Scarberians or North Yorkers transit, either. They should've stayed right where they are, and left Toronto for the Torontonians. Those parasites.

Tearing it down would bring about change faster than any other means, I guarantee it.

No, it wouldn't. I PROMISE you that tearing down the Gardener would not get Canadian Pacific to part with their Galt corridor for the wellbeing of Miltonians everywhere, the town would still be lost.

Unless you’re assuming every one of those people is willing to put up with all that extra time and energy spent in frustration.

Right, and if the people get on transit that takes twice as long to get there as the car does, that doesn't constitute extra time and energy spent in frustration?

Did your parents tell you to take a job in Toronto?

Again. Choice, not necessity.

Who said that I have a job in Toronto? I work very near my home, but I go into Toronto for other reasons: for art and culture, night life, specialized doctor's appointments, etc.

But if I did, what difference does it make? Last I checked, we don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship. I believe I am perfectly within my rights to travel outside of the town where I live for work. This is chauvinistic nonsense, and, it seems very much to me, a variation on "I got mine" thinking. You have no right to tell other people whether they should or shouldn't take a job in Toronto. I don't know if you have ever bothered to step foot outside of Toronto - based on your comments, I would be shocked to find out you have - but a podunk town like Milton is not exactly overflowing with economic opportunity. And if I had gone and taken a job, say, in Oakville, or Mississauga, I'd still need some way of getting there. You as a Torontonian who doesn't give a fig about the welfare of the poor souls consigned to living in the suburbs would still be paying for the bus or train that would get me there and getting nothing out of your tax dollars.

I find it funny that the regular traffic jams on all of our highways are never taken into consideration when these calculations get made.

Oh yes, they are. Regular traffic jams would never extend the journey anywhere near 1 h 40+. That would have to be an utter catastrophic traffic jam for transit to suddenly be competitive with the car, and I've never experienced that in my 24 years of living in the GTA.

Do you think the only solution is to move every single person into a car? That having so many commuters coming into the city is a goal we should maintain? In the long run it’s unsustainable (just from a tax income aspect), and it’s downright ludicrous.

Proper funding and construction of housing and getting rid of our ridiculous zoning would go a long way to getting traffic off the streets.

Well, no. If you cared to read the post that I made carefully before engaging with it, you would say I say we should shore up our transit system first, and THEN remove the highway, instead of removing the highway and then hoping (because that's all it is) that the transit system will play catch up. Hope is a piss poor public policy.

 

[Dan416]

Having been taking the 21 bus now that it's been reinstated, I can say it really is a shit-show with the Gardiner right now.

Is the solution to tear down the Gardiner, hell the fuck no. Not with the transit we have right now, anyway.

As for improved service on the Milton line, I will believe it when I see an actual funding announcement and actual progress. I have been taking the Milton line since I was in University, and that was from 2001-2005, so about 20 years ago. And I would argue the service on the Milton line has NOT seen 20 years worth of improvement during that time. If anything, it is comparatively worse, because it is so dependent on the Gardiner that if the Gardiner sucks, the Milton buses suck. And there are still exactly 0 trains outside of rush, hour, so a grand total of 0% increase in 20+ years. So don't come for the Gardiner until that is fixed. OK thanks bye.

 

[Rainforest]

And many chose to save money buying/renting outside of Toronto proper so they could spend the extra $1300+ a month it costs just to own and operate a car instead.

If all people who live in suburbs and work in downtown, moved into downtown .. wouldn't that push the cost of downtown dwellings even higher

Not to say that's very relevant for the Gardinert discussion. For people with office jobs, even if they start their day in the car, it is better to drive to a subway station or GO station and take a train from there.

There are cases when people need the car during the day, for example they carry heavy tools to do their job, or need to visit multiple locations. Those are a small % of all commuters though.

 

[Rainforest]

$1387/month for car ownership includes depreciation. 43% of that total, in fact.
For the average person managing their monthly cash flow and expenses, that isn't part of the monthly operating cost of the vehicle.
Yes, agreed it is a real cost in the end.

By my calculations the cost is less than that. About $1000 per month, that includes insurance, maintenance, repairs, fuel, as well as the purchase cost divided by the years of ownership. And that $1000 covers occasional trips far outside the GTA, for which I would have to rent a car if I didn't have one (no public transit in those places).

 

[Sevenman]

All of these arguments can be used just as easily against all the subway extensions to suburbia people keep promoting on here. As well as the GO bus, and every single cross border local transit route. Do I take it you're against them, too?

It doesn't make any sense. If city borders are just arbitrarily drawn lines on a map and we should ignore them when it comes to transit, why is it different when it comes to roads? The GTA is one big economic area, telling people who live outside Toronto, essentially, to get fucked, is not exactly an impressive strategy.

BTW, when it comes to your argument, "So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?", are you for real with this? What exactly do you think every single transit project we've ever built has been? Forget deep suburbia, throwing as much money as possible to make the commute from an hour away easy is the guiding philosophy behind both the farthest extensions of line 1 and line 2. Imagine how much money there would be for God knows what if we'd never bothered to give those dirty Scarberians or North Yorkers transit, either. They should've stayed right where they are, and left Toronto for the Torontonians. Those parasites.


No, it wouldn't. I PROMISE you that tearing down the Gardener would not get Canadian Pacific to part with their Galt corridor for the wellbeing of Miltonians everywhere, the town would still be lost.


Right, and if the people get on transit that takes twice as long to get there as the car does, that doesn't constitute extra time and energy spent in frustration?


Who said that I have a job in Toronto? I work very near my home, but I go into Toronto for other reasons: for art and culture, night life, specialized doctor's appointments, etc.

But if I did, what difference does it make? Last I checked, we don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship. I believe I am perfectly within my rights to travel outside of the town where I live for work. This is chauvinistic nonsense, and, it seems very much to me, a variation on "I got mine" thinking. You have no right to tell other people whether they should or shouldn't take a job in Toronto. I don't know if you have ever bothered to step foot outside of Toronto - based on your comments, I would be shocked to find out you have - but a podunk town like Milton is not exactly overflowing with economic opportunity. And if I had gone and taken a job, say, in Oakville, or Mississauga, I'd still need some way of getting there. You as a Torontonian who doesn't give a fig about the welfare of the poor souls consigned to living in the suburbs would still be paying for the bus or train that would get me there and getting nothing out of your tax dollars.


Oh yes, they are. Regular traffic jams would never extend the journey anywhere near 1 h 40+. That would have to be an utter catastrophic traffic jam for transit to suddenly be competitive with the car, and I've never experienced that in my 24 years of living in the GTA.


Well, no. If you cared to read the post that I made carefully before engaging with it, you would say I say we should shore up our transit system first, and THEN remove the highway, instead of removing the highway and then hoping (because that's all it is) that the transit system will play catch up. Hope is a piss poor public policy.

Excellent post T3G. Well said.

 

[zang]

All of these arguments can be used just as easily against all the subway extensions to suburbia people keep promoting on here. As well as the GO bus, and every single cross border local transit route. Do I take it you're against them, too?

You cannot seriously be arguing that public transit is the same as individual private transit are you?

It doesn't make any sense. If city borders are just arbitrarily drawn lines on a map and we should ignore them when it comes to transit, why is it different when it comes to roads? The GTA is one big economic area, telling people who live outside Toronto, essentially, to get fucked, is not exactly an impressive strategy.

When streets (and until recently) certain highways were bought and paid for by Toronto taxes, it sure as hell makes a difference who’s paying for it; and why continuing to eat up a massive chunk of the city’s coffers for the benefit of individual transit for people outside of city borders is unsustainable.

The Gardiner without (it would appear, continual) serious maintenance is a hazard that will eventually kill people.

The money to built the necessary transit has to come from somewhere. Because the Gardiner is viewed as a “toronto highway”, guess who the rest of the GTA will assume should shoulder the bill for both increasing the necessary transit as well as repairing a crumbling elevated highway?

Toronto gets blamed by the rest of the GTA for everything. Don’t kid yourself that Burlington; Milton and Whitby won’t blame any necessary tax increase required on Toronto—with zero sense of irony.

BTW, when it comes to your, "So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?", are you for real with this? What exactly do you think every single transit project we've ever built has been?

Please stop continuing to try and equate public transit with private.

Forget deep suburbia, throwing as much money as possible to make the commute from an hour away easy is the guiding philosophy behind both the farthest extensions of line 1 and line 2. Imagine how much money there would be for God knows what if we'd never bothered to give those dirty Scarberians or North Yorkers transit, either. They should've stayed right where they are, and left Toronto for the Torontonians. Those parasites.

Except that Scarborough and North York are a part of Toronto, and while not proper we’re part of Metro Toronto for over half a century. The TTC is as much theirs as downtown’s, and they were done dirty for a long time when it comes to transit.

Subways are a terrible long-distance commuter tactic, and building the extensions only serves to add to crowding problems those underfunded lines are already suffering. What should be served by more regular (longer range, fewer stop) GO service that would be undoubtedly faster has been shovelled into a subway system, because apparently we bow to the whims of the GTAs desires.

No, it wouldn't. I PROMISE you that tearing down the Gardener would not get Canadian Pacific to part with their Galt corridor for the wellbeing of Miltonians everywhere, the town would still be lost.

Ahhh yes, CP; the only organization in the province who can buy land and build rail, right? We can continue to be shackled to that bad decision, or y’know, build rail that doesn’t belong to them.

If we have money enough to buy up land and build a new highway few people are asking for, the ability is equally there to do so for needed rail.

And tearing down the Gardiner would subsequently also mean tearing down the 401 and 427? No, it doesn’t.

I’m fine with our pseudo ring road system.

Again, tell me how this isn’t about having an express route from your house to the downtown core?

Right, and if the people get on transit that takes twice as long to get there as the car does, that doesn't constitute extra time and energy spent in frustration?

And yet, for decades they’ve been asked to do
exactly that so that we can put the majority of our money towards cars.

Who said that I have a job in Toronto? I work very near my home, but I go into Toronto for other reasons: for art and culture, night life, specialized doctor's appointments, etc.

So you’re personally arguing for a highway straight into downtown based on nearly entirely for recreational purposes?

The entitlement of drivers will never cease to amaze me.

But if I did, what difference does it make? Last I checked, we don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship. I believe I am perfectly within my rights to travel outside of the town where I live for work.

You seem to want to equate entitlement with rights. You are not entitled a red carpet highway to downtown Toronto, over far more efficient means that for are far more for the public good.

This is chauvinistic nonsense, and, it seems very much to me, a variation on "I got mine" thinking. You have no right to tell other people whether they should or shouldn't take a job in Toronto.

I never said I did. I’ve continually said it’s a choice people make. Tearing down a highway isn’t barring someone from taking a job here. But we shouldn’t prioritize individual comfort and convenience over that of the general public, which is exactly what we’ve been doing for far, far too long.

I don't know if you have ever bothered to step foot outside of Toronto - based on your comments, I would be shocked to find out you have - but a podunk town like Milton is not exactly overflowing with economic opportunity.

Perhaps you missed just a few comments back where I mentioned I grew up rurally. I literally lived 14kms outside of Orangeville which was (then) less than 20,000 people, had zero public transit and little opportunity as business after business left. In my 20s I moved to Guelph and later Waterloo, but worked at the corner of Yonge & Front and drove there every day. So, yeah.

Been there, done all of what you think I haven’t. But sure, believe I’m some city-born-and-raised ignorant prat whose never set a foot north of Steeles.

And despite what you may think, Milton does have economic opportunity, just perhaps not in a field you want to work in. It’s been a trucking town since long before my aunt lived there and I visited every other weekend. It’s still a big trucking town; as proven by the massive effort behind the CN logistics hub.

And if I had gone and taken a job, say, in Oakville, or Mississauga, I'd still need some way of getting there. You as a Torontonian who doesn't give a fig about the welfare of the poor souls consigned to living in the suburbs would still be paying for the bus or train that would get me there and getting nothing out of your tax dollars.

Highways between cities are different than an urban highway that leads directly into the core of a city.

Or perhaps you’re also of the belief we should run a highway from the 401 or James Snow right to Martin and Main? Let’s funnel everyone who wants to get to anywhere in central Milton through that shall we?

I as a Torontonian feel I have a right to the fastest, most convenient method for me to get to exactly where I want, because I too contribute to the GTA. Please.

Oh yes, they are. Regular traffic jams would never extend the journey anywhere near 1 h 40+.

Funny, my commutes from Guelph to Toronto would easily end up two hours long a single direction, at least once a week. It was never in the Guelph side.

That would have to be an utter catastrophic traffic jam for transit to suddenly be competitive with the car, and I've never experienced that in my 24 years of living in the GTA.

Never is a long time.

Well, no. If you cared to read the post that I made carefully before engaging with it, you would say I say we should shore up our transit system first, and THEN remove the highway, instead of removing the highway and then hoping (because that's all it is) that the transit system will play catch up. Hope is a piss poor public policy.

Except we’re always going to be chasing a dragon of having enough money to do so while continuing to shovel money at cars.

As I said, ripping off the bandaid hurts. Waiting for “when we can afford to do both” has proven over the last 40 years to have been nothing but wishful thinking.

 

[smallspy]

but for the fact that the area was an industrial wasteland when the Gardiner was built,

The hundreds of people who lost their homes at the south end of Parkdale to allow for the construction of the Gardiner through there would beg to differ with your viewpoint of the area.

Dan

 

[turbanplanner]

Not at all. In fact, a greater impetus would be placed on getting them ready faster.

Sometimes ripping off the bandaid hurts.

9 women can’t make a baby in a month

 

[zang]

If all people who live in suburbs and work in downtown, moved into downtown .. wouldn't that push the cost of downtown dwellings even higher

Not to say that's very relevant for the Gardinert discussion. For people with office jobs, even if they start their day in the car, it is better to drive to a subway station or GO station and take a train from there.

There are cases when people need the car during the day, for example they carry heavy tools to do their job, or need to visit multiple locations. Those are a small % of all commuters though.

And those that do need their vehicles to do their actual job, are slowed down by those who park their vehicles for 8 hours.

It is economically draining to have so many people commuting by car.

And I don’t think everyone should live downtown. Some will always want that single-family dwelling, but Toronto isn’t short of those. Deciding we only build density in specific areas id what’s been killing us, and driving prices to unsustainably high levels. What will help us a sensible alternative to our current zoning plan, not caving to NIMBYism at the drop of a hat and not being entirely dependent on the charity of developers to build what the city actually needs.

Decades of municipal and provincial austerity and maintaining the status quo has hastened us to this point, and there’s no way to make change without some element of public pain.

 

[zang]

9 women can’t make a baby in a month

No, but transit construction in North America is painfully slow. Spain can build incredibly fast; why can’t we?

 

[turbanplanner]

No, but transit construction in North America is painfully slow. Spain can build incredibly fast; why can’t we?

Zang you seem like an idealist and I admire that, I wish we could make some big changes here but there are a lot of things we're stuck with. Short sighted voters, rail companies that basically own the country etc. Aside from money the biggest issue with GO is everything works at the pace CN and CP. They basically own the country, even have their own police.

The best outcome is a long term plan for EVERYTHING (roads etc) not just tearing things down and hoping it doesn't collapse the economy etc

 

[T3G]

The hundreds of people who lost their homes at the south end of Parkdale to allow for the construction of the Gardiner through there would beg to differ with your viewpoint of the area.

Dan

I wasn't referring to the section through Parkdale, but the elevated section through the former railway lands downtown. Hence, "life in the core" and "the area was an industrial wasteland when the Gardiner was built,".

You cannot seriously be arguing that public transit is the same as individual private transit are you?

Please stop continuing to try and equate public transit with private.

And why shouldn't I? Both cost a lot of money to build and operate, and if either will ever recoup the massive investment that goes into their construction and operation, it won't be for decades.

When streets (and until recently) certain highways were bought and paid for by Toronto taxes, it sure as hell makes a difference who’s paying for it; and why continuing to eat up a massive chunk of the city’s coffers for the benefit of individual transit for people outside of city borders is unsustainable.

Hmm, did you miss the part where lots of GO bus routes also use the Gardiner? The GO bus is slow as molasses now when compared to the train, how much worse do you think it would be if there was no Gardiner and they had to navigate local roads? Your strategy is not only a big middle finger to car drivers, but also transit users who have to use these services.

The Gardiner without (it would appear, continual) serious maintenance is a hazard that will eventually kill people.

Just like every other piece of infrastructure ever built, you mean? Infrastructure requires maintenance. Duh.

The money to built the necessary transit has to come from somewhere. Because the Gardiner is viewed as a “toronto highway”, guess who the rest of the GTA will assume should shoulder the bill for both increasing the necessary transit as well as repairing a crumbling elevated highway?

"The money to built the necessary transit has to come from somewhere"? The yearly cost of maintaining the Gardiner and DVP together, separate from its once-in-a-generation rehab program, is $16 million dollars. With that kind of cost savings, you might buy a few extra Flexity cars.

The money to build the necessary transit has to come from somewhere, but it's not going to be from eliminating one highway. That money will evaporate faster than you can say vapourware GO expansion.

Luckily, Toronto has been relieved of the burden of maintaining the Gardiner, and therefore of the rights to decide about what to do about a critical piece of infrastructure for the suburban communities. It is the only smart thing Doug Ford has ever done in his tenure.

Except that Scarborough and North York are a part of Toronto,

They are, but those people made the choice to live far away from the city's core, and therefore they must deal with the fallout of their actions. Right?

and while not proper we’re part of Metro Toronto for over half a century. The TTC is as much theirs as downtown’s, and they were done dirty for a long time when it comes to transit.

And what is the moral difference between Metro Toronto and the current crop of suburbs? Not part of Toronto proper, not part of Toronto proper. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Ahhh yes, CP; the only organization in the province who can buy land and build rail, right? We can continue to be shackled to that bad decision, or y’know, build rail that doesn’t belong to them.

What someone can theoretically do, and what someone will do, are often two planets apart. For what possible reason has our leadership not expanded the Milton service already? Why must they wait until a major highway is torn down before (theoretically) taking steps to make this happen? It could have been done decades ago, but wasn't.

And tearing down the Gardiner would subsequently also mean tearing down the 401 and 427? No, it doesn’t.

And when the 427 ends at where the Gardiner is presently... then what? That traffic gets funneled out onto local roads, as I already said.

Again, tell me how this isn’t about having an express route from your house to the downtown core?

So you’re personally arguing for a highway straight into downtown based on nearly entirely for recreational purposes?

The entitlement of drivers will never cease to amaze me.

Both of these are lazy ad hominem attacks, which doesn't surprise me, because the anti-car folk are absolutely horrendous at spreading their cause.

If you are trying to get people on to your side of an issue, insulting them and calling them entitled is a piss poor debating strategy. It doesn't matter how righteous you feel in your cause - if you are trying to achieve something, instead of just the savage vengeance that comes with attacking someone you view as an ideological opponent, you have to try to meet them in the middle and understand where they're coming from, and see how you two can both work together towards a compromise that doesn't actively fuck over the other side. How many more decades of utterly failing at making any headway on reducing car dependence must you guys go through for you to reevaluate your methods?

Last I checked, I am not a corporate puppet whose only purpose is to go to work and to return home from work. Recreation is an important part of any well rounded life, and if I'm not going to find it in the town where I live (because of course I won't), I'm going to seek it out elsewhere.

Tearing down a highway isn’t barring someone from taking a job here.

But it does cause major problems for them trying to access that job. Let's be clear, having to commute an hour one way on a daily basis is plenty bad enough; every minute spent commuting is time you can be spending with family, friends, on hobbies. Right now, turning from the 427 to local roads can easily lengthen a commute by 20-25 minutes - now how bad is it going to be if any significant portion of the 905 is going to be doing it?

Perhaps you missed just a few comments back where I mentioned I grew up rurally. I literally lived 14kms outside of Orangeville which was (then) less than 20,000 people, had zero public transit and little opportunity as business after business left. In my 20s I moved to Guelph and later Waterloo, but worked at the corner of Yonge & Front and drove there every day. So, yeah.

Been there, done all of what you think I haven’t. But sure, believe I’m some city-born-and-raised ignorant prat whose never set a foot north of Steeles.

So then you know the struggle, but now that you are no longer in that struggle you are content to let other people suffer on the basis that maybe our insipid leadership will wake up and smell the horseshit and make better transit connections to far flung areas of the GTA? That's even worse.

And despite what you may think, Milton does have economic opportunity, just perhaps not in a field you want to work in. It’s been a trucking town since long before my aunt lived there and I visited every other weekend. It’s still a big trucking town; as proven by the massive effort behind the CN logistics hub.

And if I don't want to be a trucker??? That's a difficult job, it requires much concentration and responsibility for a big part of the day, and it often means strange hours and maybe even many days in a row spent away from home. Luckily, the beauty of a democratic country is that I'm allowed to look elsewhere for employment, and I'm not required to do whatever it is that my town offers.

Highways between cities are different than an urban highway that leads directly into the core of a city.

Why? Please explain, at length, this distinction.

Or perhaps you’re also of the belief we should run a highway from the 401 or James Snow right to Martin and Main? Let’s funnel everyone who wants to get to anywhere in central Milton through that shall we?

Why on God's earth would I think that? It's less than a 5 minute drive from Martin and 401 to Martin and Main. What kind of an absurd strawman is this?

 

[zang]

By my calculations the cost is less than that. About $1000 per month, that includes insurance, maintenance, repairs, fuel, as well as the purchase cost divided by the years of ownership. And that $1000 covers occasional trips far outside the GTA, for which I would have to rent a car if I didn't have one (no public transit in those places).

Not my calculation. This comes from finance company Ratehub.

How much are Canadians paying per month on average to own a car? Here’s what one report found

The report from Ratehub.com also found the cost of buying a new car shot up more than 19 per cent year-over-year as of September 2023 to $67,817.

www.thestar.com

 

[turbanplanner]

Not my calculation. This comes from finance company Ratehub.

How much are Canadians paying per month on average to own a car? Here’s what one report found

The report from Ratehub.com also found the cost of buying a new car shot up more than 19 per cent year-over-year as of September 2023 to $67,817.

www.thestar.com

These numbers are worthless to individuals