Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[turbanplanner]

should go without saying, but they should/could/will have to scale all the GO lines as much as possible. I'm talking EMU's that carry 1000 pphpd with 3 minute frequencies or less.

Lakeshore west in particular has four tracks and therefore can scale the easiest. it's more complicated east of Union, but still possible.

Look at the Richmond hill line? 2 stops in Toronto but no service aside from 4 trains on weekdays. Even the lines that already have money thrown at them (Milton, Barrie which got a new bridge) are several years away from all day service.

 

[zang]

Many people don't choose to live in the suburbs to save money, they are forced to live there because they've been completely priced out of the actual city.

If you own a car, then it is a choice between owning a car and affording something within the city. The average rent in Toronto vs the GTA is higher, but not $1387 different in nearly all cases.

You have to get out of the GTA for the difference to be close to that dramatic.

I don't see what relevance it has, anyway. You can't have it both ways. If we are building subways to York Region to serve folk who are not Torontonians, why shouldn't our road network also serve people who live outside of the city?

It always has. I can (or could) take Yonge all the way up to Barrie.

The problem being that priority has been given to the least efficient, most costly and most destructive method of transport for 60+ years.

Maybe those who choose to drive alone in their own vehicle don’t need to also be given the high speed red carpet treatment.

If we shut down the Gardiner we should immediately follow up with the Spadina subway extension and destroy all planning materials for Yonge North. Fair is fair.

That’s ridiculous.

There are currently two throughways on the shores of Lake Ontario that go from the same place to the same place, and along a route that will soon have all-day, every 15 minute commuter trains.

 

[turbanplanner]

If you own a car, then it is a choice between owning a car and affording something within the city. The average rent in Toronto vs the GTA is higher, but not $1387 different in nearly all cases.

You have to get out of the GTA for the difference to be close to that dramatic.




It always has. I can (or could) take Yonge all the way up to Barrie.

The problem being that priority has been given to the least efficient, most costly and most destructive method of transport for 60+ years.

Maybe those who choose to drive alone in their own vehicle don’t need to also be given the high speed red carpet treatment.


That’s ridiculous.

There are currently two throughways on the shores of Lake Ontario that go from the same place to the same place, and along a route that will soon have all-day, every 15 minute commuter trains.

Zang you're looking at things wayyyyyyyy too black and white. People have kids, partners etc. Living downtown might not make sense, the commute may be fine for 1 person but the second would be too far. It's hard to grab your kids from daycare on a packed bus. I know people who live two hours away so their kids can have a backyard and afford vacations.

 

[duty free]

Look at the Richmond hill line? 2 stops in Toronto but no service aside from 4 trains on weekdays. Even the lines that already have money thrown at them (Milton, Barrie which got a new bridge) are several years away from all day service.

they all need the Sydney Metro treatment in my opinion. all of them.

 

[DKB]

I am happy they have implemented one of the ideas I had hoped for. Opening Jameson Westbound and pushing the lanes to the left so the right lane becomes a longer onramp.

Congrats!.. but tbh.. this is an issue which should have been fixed 10 years ago, when they (I think) removed most of a bridge over the gardner. The pier should have been removed and build a new smaller one for the pedestrian bridge we have now, to create more space for a proper on ramp...

 

[TTCdinosaur]

Zang you're looking at things wayyyyyyyy too black and white. People have kids, partners etc. Living downtown might not make sense, the commute may be fine for 1 person but the second would be too far. It's hard to grab your kids from daycare on a packed bus. I know people who live two hours away so their kids can have a backyard and afford vacations.

And they got those things. Why they’re now entitled to a quick commute is beyond me. But NA is so car and suburb brained, it’s a lost cause.

I find it funny we default to kids in cities are perceived to be less fortunate in their upbringing.

 

[wopchop]

If you own a car, then it is a choice between owning a car and affording something within the city. The average rent in Toronto vs the GTA is higher, but not $1387 different in nearly all cases.

$1387/month for car ownership includes depreciation. 43% of that total, in fact.
For the average person managing their monthly cash flow and expenses, that isn't part of the monthly operating cost of the vehicle.
Yes, agreed it is a real cost in the end.

 

[generalcanada]

$1387/month for car ownership includes depreciation. 43% of that total, in fact.
For the average person managing their monthly cash flow and expenses, that isn't part of the monthly operating cost of the vehicle.
Yes, agreed it is a real cost in the end.

Actually has that been recalculated since 2020? Nowadays used car prices are near identical to new car prices.

But in any case as a car owner my average monthly cost is 275 per month, Includes underground parking, insurance and a yearly oil change. I own my car outright
I drive my car around 3-5000km per year. Maybe more now that i commute once a week to markham though.

 

[max]

Congrats!.. but tbh.. this is an issue which should have been fixed 10 years ago, when they (I think) removed most of a bridge over the gardner. The pier should have been removed and build a new smaller one for the pedestrian bridge we have now, to create more space for a proper on ramp...

The current bridge is temporary while they work on the plan which will do exactly what you suggest: https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...ojects/dunn-dowling-bridge-replacement-study/

 

[T3G]

It always has. I can (or could) take Yonge all the way up to Barrie.

The problem being that priority has been given to the least efficient, most costly and most destructive method of transport for 60+ years.

Maybe those who choose to drive alone in their own vehicle don’t need to also be given the high speed red carpet treatment.

That's very nice, but to undo that status quo, we actually have to do something about it.

Look, I hate the overreliance we have on cars as much as you. The propaganda that our urban planners bought into in the wake of World War II has done irreparable damage to the fabric of our society. But there is no point in crying about spilled milk - this is the situation we have. We have introduced a drug into society and made it widespread, and before we can wean its users off of it, we need alternative options. It is not enough to make some symbolic moves at reducing car dependency like adding in some bike lanes and increasing service on a few GO lines and pretending we are good to tear down a major highway. You want to talk about the Gardiner making the city unlivable, how livable will it be when all of the cars that have been displaced from that highway now end up clogging our already congested streets?

There are currently two throughways on the shores of Lake Ontario that go from the same place to the same place, and along a route that will soon have all-day, every 15 minute commuter trains.

Great, and what about the rest of southern Ontario? Look at the situation in Milton, for example. I might be able to have some sympathy for your point if there was all way, 15 minute service on the Milton line, but we are decades out from that being remotely a possibility. Right now, on weekdays your choices are to either take the 22 that runs every 2 hours down to Oakville to transfer to the Lakeshore West line, or to use the 21, which runs every hour after the morning rush hour, and is going to get caught in traffic on the Gardiner. On weekends, the 22 doesn't run, so your options are either to take an agonizingly slow bus that gets stuck in traffic, or to stay home. And you wonder why someone might choose to take their car? If memory serves, I had no say in my parents choosing to move us out to Milton when I was 11 years old, so I'm not sure why I should be punished for the decision my parents made 15 years ago and have to double my trip time when I can be downtown by car in less than an hour. My time is not so worthless that I can afford to waste 2 hours every time I need to get downtown. And remember, that travel time presumes I catch the vehicle on time. Heaven forbid I miss it, and have a 1-2 hour wait for the next one.

Travellers from Richmond Hill, Aurora, Kitchener, Hamilton all have similar disparities in travel time by car vs. transit. These are not trivial disparities, 5 minutes or so, these are a full 30-60 minutes.

Getting rid of the Gardiner is a very lofty plan, but it's a plan for a different city than Toronto, like London. No one on this board will live to see transit implemented in their natural lifespans that will be sufficient for the Gardiner to be torn down. Not one.

 

[zang]

And they got those things. Why they’re now entitled to a quick commute is beyond me. But NA is so car and suburb brained, it’s a lost cause.

I find it funny we default to kids in cities are perceived to be less fortunate in their upbringing.

As someone who grew up rurally, and spent many further years living in small town suburbia, I’m quite happy that my daughter is growing up in Downtown Toronto.

She’s not going to grow up thinking that a car is a necessity, fearful of anything that doesn’t currently fly in idealized, cleansed suburbia.

She’s grown up having memberships to both the AGO and the OSC. She’ll be able to go to a full fledged school for the arts when she’s in high school (within walking distance even), if she so chooses.

We currently live in an area with a 99% walkability score. What others may see as misfortune, is actually freedom. She can walk to the movies, hop on a subway and go to the mall. She’s not going to be dependent on getting a ride (or later driving herself) to do just about anything.

Suburbia and cars are just a shackle.

My in-laws just send their kids outside in the yard to do just about anything, and those kids are constantly bored. They’re too far away from anything but a playground. Nobody wants to go anywhere because that involves driving, and driving is a chore with kids.

 

[turbanplanner]

Actually has that been recalculated since 2020? Nowadays used car prices are near identical to new car prices.

But in any case as a car owner my average monthly cost is 275 per month, Includes underground parking, insurance and a yearly oil change. I own my car outright
I drive my car around 3-5000km per year. Maybe more now that i commute once a week to markham though.

Those surveys make me laugh! It's like the saying the average person has 1 ball and 1 boob.

And they got those things. Why they’re now entitled to a quick commute is beyond me. But NA is so car and suburb brained, it’s a lost cause.

I find it funny we default to kids in cities are perceived to be less fortunate in their upbringing.

Noise pollution, less green space, lots of "characters" around. I think there are genuine disadvantages. I'm pointing out not everyone wants to live downtown and since we're not CCP china that's ok here

 

[zang]

That's very nice, but to undo that status quo, we actually have to do something about it.

Look, I hate the overreliance we have on cars as much as you. The propaganda that our urban planners bought into in the wake of World War II has done irreparable damage to the fabric of our society. But there is no point in crying about spilled milk - this is the situation we have. We have introduced a drug into society and made it widespread, and before we can wean its users off of it, we need alternative options. It is not enough to make some symbolic moves at reducing car dependency like adding in some bike lanes and increasing service on a few GO lines and pretending we are good to tear down a major highway.

Tearing it down would bring about change faster than any other means, I guarantee it.

Just because we got complacent about things doesn’t mean we have to remain complacent. There will be growing pains, but at least the end result will be sustainable.

And do you honestly think every single person who drives today would continue to drive were the Gardiner suddenly gone?

You want to talk about the Gardiner making the city unlivable, how livable will it be when all of the cars that have been displaced from that highway now end up clogging our already congested streets?

That’s not just going to happen. Unless you’re assuming every one of those people is willing to put up with all that extra time and energy spent in frustration. I’m not going to assume that, and highway removals in other cities don’t show that to be the case either.

The people who walk or take the GO or the subway aren’t going to see much of a difference.

Great, and what about the rest of southern Ontario? Look at the situation in Milton, for example. I might be able to have some sympathy for your point if there was all way, 15 minute service on the Milton line, but we are decades out from that being remotely a possibility.

So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?

Where does self-awareness and personal responsibility factor into all of this?

Right now, on weekdays your choices are to either take the 22 that runs every 2 hours down to Oakville to transfer to the Lakeshore West line, or to use the 21, which runs every hour after the morning rush hour, and is going to get caught in traffic on the Gardiner. On weekends, the 22 doesn't run, so your options are either to take an agonizingly slow bus that gets stuck in traffic, or to stay home. And you wonder why someone might choose to take their car? If memory serves, I had no say in my parents choosing to move us out to Milton when I was 11 years old, so I'm not sure why I should be punished for the decision my parents made 15 years ago and have to double my trip time when I can be downtown by car in less than an hour.

Did your parents tell you to take a job in Toronto?

Again. Choice, not necessity.

Travellers from Richmond Hill, Aurora, Kitchener, Hamilton all have similar disparities in travel time by car vs. transit. These are not trivial disparities, 5 minutes or so, these are a full 30-60 minutes.

I find it funny that the regular traffic jams on all of our highways are never taken into consideration when these calculations get made.

Getting rid of the Gardiner is a very lofty plan, but it's a plan for a different city than Toronto, like London.

Again “Toronto is different”.

We’re not. Some people just want to believe it is to justify keeping status quo.

No one on this board will live to see transit implemented in their natural lifespans that will be sufficient for the Gardiner to be torn down. Not one.

Do you think the only solution is to move every single person into a car? That having so many commuters coming into the city is a goal we should maintain? In the long run it’s unsustainable (just from a tax income aspect), and it’s downright ludicrous.

Proper funding and construction of housing and getting rid of our ridiculous zoning would go a long way to getting traffic off the streets.

 

[turbanplanner]

Tearing it down would bring about change faster than any other means, I guarantee it.

Just because we got complacent about things doesn’t mean we have to remain complacent. There will be growing pains, but at least the end result will be sustainable.

And do you honestly think every single person who drives today would continue to drive were the Gardiner suddenly gone?



That’s not just going to happen. Unless you’re assuming every one of those people is willing to put up with all that extra time and energy spent in frustration. I’m not going to assume that, and highway removals in other cities don’t show that to be the case either.

The people who walk or take the GO or the subway aren’t going to see much of a difference.



So because someone chose to live an hour away from where they work, we should be obligated to continually throw as much money as we can to making that commute as easy as possible for them?

Where does self-awareness and personal responsibility factor into all of this?



Did your parents tell you to take a job in Toronto?

Again. Choice, not necessity.



I find it funny that the regular traffic jams on all of our highways are never taken into consideration when these calculations get made.



Again “Toronto is different”.

We’re not. Some people just want to believe it is to justify keeping status quo.



Do you think the only solution is to move every single person into a car? That having so many commuters coming into the city is a goal we should maintain? In the long run it’s unsustainable (just from a tax income aspect), and it’s downright ludicrous.

Proper funding and construction of housing and getting rid of our ridiculous zoning would go a long way to getting traffic off the streets.

Tearing it down would bring about change faster than any other means, I guarantee it.

Are you going it ignore Milton, RH, OL, and countless other projects still have years and billions to go before being ready?

 

[zang]

Those surveys make me laugh! It's like the saying the average person has 1 ball and 1 boob.

Noise pollution, less green space, lots of "characters" around. I think there are genuine disadvantages.

Most noise pollution comes from cars. Less cars, less noise pollution.

Most green space in the suburbs isn’t publicly accessible (ie; other peoples back yards). And need I point out that Toronto’s been called “The city within a park” for a very long time? The ravines, the island, high park, the bluffs, the Rogue Valley. Toronto’s parks make up for almost 13% of the area of the entire city. One out of every eight acres is park. Very few suburbs can claim anything close.

The “characters” are, in part, because we shovel so much of our budget into supporting cars and the police, that we can’t afford to properly address homelessness and mental health.

And all of the GTA has these problems. Don’t kid yourself.

I'm pointing out not everyone wants to live downtown and since we're not CCP china that's ok here

So why the socialism-for-cars then?

Shouldn’t car owners pay their fare share for their choices to live far away and drive?

If it weren’t such a free ride (on the backs of all taxpayers), I doubt so many would choose to drive.