VIA Rail

[roger1818]

That does bring up an interesting question actually; would HFR be cheaper operationally than paying CN to use their corridor.

On one hand you aren't paying CN or CP to use their stuff, and we know that lots of times they have been caught overcharging VIA, but on the other hand maintaining your own rail lines is not cheap.

Cheaper? Probably not, but the improved frequency and reliability will increase ridership, thus increasing revenue. Cutting costs isn’t the only way to improve profitability (or reduce loses) and often you need to spend more money to make money.

 

[Allandale25]

There is supposed to be a budget released in the spring, with the potential of an election being called over it.
If it is in the budget, and the budget passes a confidence motion, then it will happen sooner than later.
If it is not in the budget, it is pushed further down the line.
If it is in the Budget, but the budget is defeated, and we go to an election, then it also will get pushed down the line. Watch for which platform has it and which does not, and who wins the election.

HFR is almost a fantasy at this point. Yes, there are plans, but nothing has been awarded.

Not true. $71 million was awarded for the JPO, which is appropriate given the complexity and scope this project involves. It's natural that a detailed study is needed before any government for any project commits the full amount and launches a RFP process.

CIB working on the High Frequency Rail project | Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)

The Government of Canada and CIB are committing a total of $71.1M to further explore VIA Rail Canada’s proposal for High Frequency Rail in the Quebec City-Toronto Corridor.

cib-bic.ca

 

[micheal_can]

Not true. $71 million was awarded for the JPO, which is appropriate given the complexity and scope this project involves. It's natural that a detailed study is needed before any government for any project commits the full amount and launches a RFP process.

CIB working on the High Frequency Rail project | Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)

The Government of Canada and CIB are committing a total of $71.1M to further explore VIA Rail Canada’s proposal for High Frequency Rail in the Quebec City-Toronto Corridor.

cib-bic.ca

Thank you for correcting me.

 

[robmausser]

Cheaper? Probably not, but the improved frequency and reliability will increase ridership, thus increasing revenue. Cutting costs isn’t the only way to improve profitability (or reduce loses) and often you need to spend more money to make money.

You basically articulated what I meant. I meant less subsidies per passenger, which is the same thing as you put it.

 

[roger1818]

Platforms 09/10 and 11/12 have a second set of stairs just north (left) of the great hall flanking the Second Cup, according to this pretty recent floorplan which I have marked up in red.
I had to turn this diagram upside down because it was the other way up from the CN track-level plan I posted previously. The red text on some of the staircases says "up" not "dn".
View attachment 294065

The stairs further down the platform are a bit more curious. According to the 50-year-old track-level plan, tracks 09/10 and 11/12 should have stairs on either side of Rue de la Gauchetière, and plaform 07/08 should have one staircase on the north side only. The present-day ground-level plan only shows the stairs from the abandoned platform 07/08, which are apparently accessed from one or more of these unmarked doors on Rue de la Gauchetière.
View attachment 294060

The stairs from 09/10 and 11/12 are nowhere to be seen on the ground floor plan, but there is a suspiciously staircase-sized unit marked in the parking garage right over platform 11/12. Sure enough, looking through the glass doors via Streetview you can see a railing heading down.
View attachment 294061
But the numerous "Entrée Interdite" signs make it pretty clear that this staircase is no longer in public use.

Great sleuthing work!

I don't see any traces of the stairs from platform 09/10. If someone's in the area, they could try running at the wall between tracks 09 and 10 to see if they pass through, but barring that I think we can assume that they've been demolished.

It is really hard to say. They may have been demolished or they may be well hidden. I would probably have to go in person and have a look, which isn't going to happen any time soon. If it exists, it has to be somewhere around here.

I have no idea what the fate is of the staircases on the south side of Rue de la Gauchetière, because the floorplan doesn't extend that far and I don't see any clues via Streetview.

I would guess that they go into Place Bonaventure. There is a long hallway that runs beside Rue de la Gauchetière (basically from the food court to the metro station) and I seem to remember there being some closed doors on the north side of the hallway that didn't go outside.

These alternate entrances would certainly be good for REM service. They could wall off the southern end of the platform to create a hallway and then put in fare gates at the end.

I have marked the position of the former staircase on the plan above by extrapolating the dimensions of the other staircases. The location of the row of pillars (in the centre of the platform) confirms that this is the right position.

The staircase itself doesn't actually encroach on the Bureau en Gros, but the store would need to be cut back to allow people to access the staircase. Evicting them would be unnecessary.

True. They would need to make the store smaller though.

But in any case, I never said that we would reinstate that staircase. In the concept I described, there would be a large platform between tracks 07 and 10, so people could access track 07 from the current platform 09/10 staircases and elevators.

True.

Yes, like I said, it is clearly much easier to use 09-12 for REM, since it maintains pretty much the existing track configuration, with a pair of tracks each for the Montreal Subdivision and Deux-Montagnes Subdivision (now REM).

But my concern is that once the megaplatform is built between 09 and 12, it will be quite a challenge to relocate in the future if we ever want to run additional train service into Gare Centrale. 10 tracks may sound like a lot, but terminal stations have a notoriously low capacity per platform due to the long dwell times and conflicts in the rail corridor.

I do tend to agree. Capacity certainly could become a problem at Central Station, especially if EXO decides they want more platforms. Stranding so many tracks could come back to bite them..

One pipe dream I have would be to remove tracks 4-7 and run tracks and platforms perpendicular to them and to somehow connect to CP's Westmount Sub. This is likely impossible, but it would nice if they could. A more likely option would be to wait for the Bell Centre to be replaced (it is already approaching its 25th birthday in March) and then reopen Windsor Station. Using 2 stations that are only a short walk from each other wouldn't be the end of the world.

The only trains that REM is directly replacing are the Mascouche and Deux-Montagnes trains which never conflicted with VIA in the first place since they exited from the north side of the station. VIA's own Jonquière and Senneterre trains could theoretically get cut back to Côte-des-Neiges REM station and not serve Gare Centrale, given that transferring to the REM would be considerably faster than the huge detour VIA trains need to take. But I'm guessing the trains themselves need to be downtown anyway to go back to the yard, so they'll continue serving Gare Centrale.

Hmm. For some reason I was under the impression that it was also replacing a line to the south, but I guess I was mistaken.

 

[micheal_can]

I do tend to agree. Capacity certainly could become a problem at Central Station, especially if EXO decides they want more platforms. Stranding so many tracks could come back to bite them..

One pipe dream I have would be to remove tracks 4-7 and run tracks and platforms perpendicular to them and to somehow connect to CP's Westmount Sub. This is likely impossible, but it would nice if they could. A more likely option would be to wait for the Bell Centre to be replaced (it is already approaching its 25th birthday in March) and then reopen Windsor Station. Using 2 stations that are only a short walk from each other wouldn't be the end of the world.

Could they dig under and make a new level?

 

[roger1818]

Not true. $71 million was awarded for the JPO, which is appropriate given the complexity and scope this project involves. It's natural that a detailed study is needed before any government for any project commits the full amount and launches a RFP process.

CIB working on the High Frequency Rail project | Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB)

The Government of Canada and CIB are committing a total of $71.1M to further explore VIA Rail Canada’s proposal for High Frequency Rail in the Quebec City-Toronto Corridor.

cib-bic.ca

I beleive this has been mentioned before, but given some of the comments here it is worth repeating. If you you click on the "READ MORE" button on the link you provided, it says (among other things):

It will also fund technical work to ensure the interoperability and integration of High Frequency Rail with operating tracks used by local and regional transit providers in Montreal and Toronto. This includes track work in Montreal’s Mont-Royal Tunnel to enable VIA Rail Canada’s heavy rail trains to operate on this segment of the Réseau express métropolitain (REM) light rail system. This important piece of preliminary work is needed so that the different rail systems work together should High Frequency Rail proceed in the future.

So VIA will be able to use the tunnel in Montreal. Also, the "and Toronto" comment implies that they are have money to preserve access to Union Station from the Havelock Sub. This isn't a guarantee that HFR will happen, but it does indicates that current local development won't block HFR.

 

[roger1818]

Could they dig under and make a new level?

I don't know, but with the Orange line right there and Mary, Queen of the World Cathedral right beside Central Station, it would be a tight squeeze.

 

[2transpo]

^^One get’s to wonder that if HFR is “almost a fantasy”, what are his plans of restoring daily passenger service all across Canada and why do we have to discuss them in this thread every month?

I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves on this thread. HFR is the furthest thing from a done deal. It seems that a lot of the preliminary work has been done to keep everyone distracted and happy in order to make them think it is coming.

The upcoming election/budget is the perfect place to sink the project. Even worse, if a Conservative government wins, HFR is guaranteed to be cancelled.

 

[robmausser]

Could they dig under and make a new level?

At this point it would probably be best to just make a new station downtown with a connection to the Metro or REM. Especially since it would also solve the issue of continuing trains through to Quebec.

 

[Allandale25]

I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves on this thread. HFR is the furthest thing from a done deal. It seems that a lot of the preliminary work has been done to keep everyone distracted and happy in order to make them think it is coming.

The upcoming election/budget is the perfect place to sink the project. Even worse, if a Conservative government wins, HFR is guaranteed to be cancelled.

In my view, it will be easier to evaluate whether the JPO work is preliminary or extensive once they release any work. Once it's released, we can compare it to other big projects, like GO Electrification/OnCorr/Expansion and its material.

 

[roger1818]

I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves on this thread. HFR is the furthest thing from a done deal. It seems that a lot of the preliminary work has been done to keep everyone distracted and happy in order to make them think it is coming.

I agree that HFR is not a done deal, but it is the best shot VIA has.

The upcoming election/budget is the perfect place to sink the project. Even worse, if a Conservative government wins, HFR is guaranteed to be cancelled.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't say a Conservative government would guarantee the cancelation of HFR. Sure it would be a harder road, but if VIA can prove that HFR will result in reduced subsidies, that would be attractive to the Conservatives. The other key is that it can't be bad for either the airlines or the freight railways.

 

[roger1818]

At this point it would probably be best to just make a new station downtown with a connection to the Metro or REM. Especially since it would also solve the issue of continuing trains through to Quebec.

Where would you place a new "station downtown" that solves "the issue of continuing trains through to Quebec?"

 

[robmausser]

Where would you place a new "station downtown" that solves "the issue of continuing trains through to Quebec?"

Personally I would choose buying up the CN spur in the east, upgrading it and making a nice attractive 2 or 3 platform station on the waterfront of Old Montreal. Then continuing along that spur to the St.Jerome Line. From then St. Jerome Line east to Quebec City

All the rail would have to be purchased and upgraded various connections made etc, but thats exactly what HFR is all about.

It could connect to the REM 2 East plan at a station, as they are elevating through that area.

 

[Urban Sky]

Personally I would choose buying up the CN spur in the east, upgrading it and making a nice attractive 2 or 3 platform station on the waterfront of Old Montreal. Then continuing along that spur to the St.Jerome Line. From then St. Jerome Line east to Quebec City

View attachment 294238

All the rail would have to be purchased and upgraded various connections made etc, but thats exactly what HFR is all about.

It could connect to the REM 2 East plan at a station, as they are elevating through that area.

If you check 10 weeks or 82* pages back:

Not to mention that sending anything else than infrequent freight trains travelling at basically walking speed through the highly touristy Old Port area is a non-starter and that it is close to impossible to construct a connection into Gare Centrale:

*Guys, we really need to stop the spamming here! More than one page per day is an insane average over such a long period...