SmartTrack (Proposed)

[treplow]

I have a feeling Go RER/SmartTrack will end up looking something like Sydney Trains (formerly CityRail) - a hybrid subway/commuter rail system with a mix of bilevel EMUs and DMUs running at (near) metro frequencies:

The network map kind of resembles our current GO lines:

 

[robmausser]

I second the Talent 2's...they are gorgeous and have the look and feel of a "subway on heavy rail". Part of any good transit planning is getting people interested in using it. I fear that if people see big hulking bi level EMU's they will think "we were promised an 'above ground subway' and you gave us more stinking GO trains!" I strongly think the fleet has to be extremely nimble and quick and feel like a subway train for people to see Smarttrack as a good idea.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well ST and RER will be using EMUs, so whatever we get, it will be quick and nimble.

Does anyone care to speculate on the interior configuration of the trains? I think a subway car like arrangement would be appropriate for SmartTrack, while something more similar to GO would be appropriate for RER

 

[robmausser]

I'm not debating that the bi level emus aren't quick and nimble I'm saying people perceptions of them.

I know most people here are engineers but I work at a branding agency. My perspective is a bit different.

You have to understand that the general populous doesnt understand things like you do. To put it mildly they are dumb.

You could modify the current GO trains have the fastest acceleration in the world and most people would still associate them with slow commuter transit. You could attach rockets to them and people would still say "man commuter go trains as slow".

The number 1. Complaint about the UPX after the price was that the trains looked ugly and outdated.

Perception and looks are everything and I guarantee that if bilevels are used for Smart track people are going to declare it a failure whether they are quick and nimble or not.

People will say they were promised a subway and got a commuter train. Simple as that.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm not debating that the bi level emus aren't quick and nimble I'm saying people perceptions of them.

I do not think the public care that much about bi-level emus. And lets get back on topic about the SmartTrack.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm not debating that the bi level emus aren't quick and nimble I'm saying people perceptions of them.

I know most people here are engineers but I work at a branding agency. My perspective is a bit different.

You have to understand that the general populous doesnt understand things like you do. To put it mildly they are dumb.

You could modify the current GO trains have the fastest acceleration in the world and most people would still associate them with slow commuter transit. You could attach rockets to them and people would still say "man commuter go trains as slow".

The number 1. Complaint about the UPX after the price was that the trains looked ugly and outdated.

Perception and looks are everything and I guarantee that if bilevels are used for Smart track people are going to declare it a failure whether they are quick and nimble or not.

People will say they were promised a subway and got a commuter train. Simple as that.

I think, then, that job 1 would be to change the brand image of double deck emus because the real end goal is to provide capactiy and efficiency.

This catering to public perception in public transit planning might lead to bad decisions. Some might even say it is why we are paying double for an east end transit line that will serve less people and take longer to build than the cheaper more wide reaching original plan.....because someone sold the brand "subways" as better than it really is.

 

[crs1026]

I think we may be looking in the wrong end of the telescope here. and let's not get all foamy about which design we "like" best (or looks best in the fans' photos).

The selling point for bilevels is the capacity, not the loading time. (yes, it takes longer to load more people, so they have longer dwell time)

If the passenger loads are heavy, a single level train won't load quickly, and the system won't achieve its objective.

If the passenger loads are light, a bilevel will load quickly, but there will be excess capacity (empty seats).

There may be capital and operating cost tradeoffs (which is cheaper for the same capacity - two car bilevel train vs four car single level)

My unscientific wild-eyed guess would be that bilevels would be cheaper, even if loads are light. Smaller fleet and shorter trains. If it matters, the Montreal-NJT bilevels conform to a single-level clearance template, so I'm not wedded to the traditional GO bilevel design. Paris RER uses bilevels quite effectively in a quasi-subway mode, Parisiens don't seem to mind.

If Smarttrack is worth building, and if it is supposed to in some way offset need for a Relief Line, we need to plan for heavy loads, not light loads. If we are wedded to single level in subway format, buy more TR's - so we have consistency and economy of scale.

So I would argue for bilevels. The worst that can happen is they run partly empty. Better than running out of capacity.

- Paul

 

[M II A II R II K]

Jobs, transit and the future: How an empty lot at the foot of Toronto could transform it

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...f-toronto-could-transform-it/article23461556/

.....

How do you turn almost 60 acres of little-used land into a bustling business destination and a key stop in the mayor’s SmartTrack plan? Elizabeth Church reports on all the pieces that must fall into place to develop the former Unilever site into something more.

- The first step for any development is flood-proofing for the east side of the lower Don River. After years of study, an environmental assessment that contains plans to naturalize the river’s mouth has been approved by the province, but the work remains unfunded. Plans are for equal contributions of $325-million from the city, province and federal government. Toronto deputy city manager John Livey said the city’s share will come through development charges. Federal Finance Minister Joe Oliver has said there have been “productive conversations†about the request. The Ontario government is proposing a third-party review of the business case for the project and its costs before it cuts a cheque.

- City staff is expected to report to the public works committee and council this spring with a revised look at options for the Gardiner Expressway east of Jarvis Street. The report will include cost and funding proposals for a new “hybrid option,†proposed by developer First Gulf, that would see the path of the elevated highway shifted northeast of Cherry Street. Other options include maintaining the eastern portion of the expressway or tearing it down. A decision on the expressway was deferred during the last term of council, and there is now pressure for action given the crumbling state of the elevated roadway.

- Even before SmartTrack, First Gulf envisioned a train stop on its site. Bringing transit to the area – along the rail corridor, as a subway relief line or as a southern extension of Broadview Avenue – is a requirement for attracting commercial tenants. “Nothing will happen without unlocking the transit piece,†Councillor Paula Fletcher says. A regional rail line such as SmartTrack will give the site “an incredible level of access,†city planning director Gregg Lintern says. Transit options will also influence the scale of development, he said.

.....

 

[Duck]

Oooo, rolling stock discussion! I'm in. Two favourites stick out in my mind from my European travels over the years. The NS "DubbeldeksInterregiomaterieel" trains in Holland:

...and the S-Tog trains in Copenhagen, Denmark (I called them the Sausage-Trains; they're adorably plump!):

The coaches are very short (and only have a single axle shared between adjacent coaches), and the whole thing is open down the centre. The cyclists will love this one because it has a huge open area just for bikes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Aaaaaand now I'm craving a breakfast sausage. Thanks.

 

[ehlow]

Copenhagen has cool looking trains.

Re: Unilever site stop. I'm hoping they'll move that stop to Cherry St so that it's easily walkable from Distillery District & Pan Am Village or add a new stop there.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Copenhagen has cool looking trains.

Re: Unilever site stop. I'm hoping they'll move that stop to Cherry St so that it's easily walkable from Distillery District & Pan Am Village or add a new stop there.

When Metrolinx puts out the RFP for the EMUs, I hope the criteria for selection includes how cool the train looks. If it's good enough for UT, then it should be good enough for Metrolinx.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think SmartTrack will use any bi-level trains. Even those with wider doors tend to take significantly longer to unload. I think you will also see crowding on the main level. These are not commuter cars where 95% of the travellers get on at their station and get off at Union. Due to it's TTC structure there will be far more short trips of even 2 or 3 stations which means people won't both going upstairs just for 5 minutes. I also think they will be one level because they will be easily differentiated from the current bi-level GO Commuter service.

I think you will see either a one-level Syd/Mel type suburban electrified rail or maybe something like Copenhagen's S-Tog.

 

[Duck]

Agreed completely, ssiguy2. I guess it's like this, if you have a bi-level with twice the capacity of a single level vehicle, but the same number/width of doors... it will take twice as long for the entire car to filter out/in through those doorways. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of single level vehicles.

I've also always been a fan of the Yamanote line trains (Tokyo), Kawasaki E321's - they're a bit spartan, but absolutely mean business. Longtrain is long!

 

[sixrings]

Plus wouldn't you need to have bigger tunnels for two level trains? If the lrt cost more underground because of the bigger tunnels than subway wouldn't this be even more expensive?