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[arcum]

The more I examine Google Maps/Earth for this corridor I am really impressed at the scale of this rail expansion. For Metrolinx to convert all the GO lines to RER will require similar works of engineering (adding tracks, new grade separations, bridges etc.).

Where are some figures for the total costs/schedules for this work? Just want to get a ballpark idea for how long this took and how expensive it is.

 

[Markster]

The more I examine Google Maps/Earth for this corridor I am really impressed at the scale of this rail expansion. For Metrolinx to convert all the GO lines to RER will require similar works of engineering (adding tracks, new grade separations, bridges etc.).

There are a number of big-ticket rail-rail grade separations still to come, that were discussed at the Dec Metrolinx meeting, namely Hamilton Junction, Bramalea CN crossover, Davenport Diamond, and the Scarborough Junction. Those will represent a significant chunk of the investment, with each ballparked at $300M-$600M. As well, there is the planned rail flyover at Oshawa over the 401 to the CP line.

Thankfully, the remaining road-rail grade separations, while still relatively plentiful on the Stouffville line, won't be as complicated as Weston was. They'll be more on the order of the Sheppard grade separation ($30M each) instead of Weston ($200M).

Hopefully there will be some acceptance of modestly frequent RER service that still has at-grade crossings with lower volume streets.

 

[TOareaFan]

The more I examine Google Maps/Earth for this corridor I am really impressed at the scale of this rail expansion. For Metrolinx to convert all the GO lines to RER will require similar works of engineering (adding tracks, new grade separations, bridges etc.).

Where are some figures for the total costs/schedules for this work? Just want to get a ballpark idea for how long this took and how expensive it is.

Are you talking about the GTS project? It was $1.3B and started in earnest in April 2010 (that is when the mid day trains were cancelled temporarily to allow construction to proceed faster). Project has its own web page http://www.gotransit.com/gts/en/default.aspx

 

[Allandale25]

There are a number of big-ticket rail-rail grade separations still to come, that were discussed at the Dec Metrolinx meeting, namely Hamilton Junction, Bramalea CN crossover, Davenport Diamond, and the Scarborough Junction. Those will represent a significant chunk of the investment, with each ballparked at $300M-$600M. As well, there is the planned rail flyover at Oshawa over the 401 to the CP line.

If you look at the RER report from December 2014 that went to the Metrolinx Board (page 28 here), they actually talk about the rail-to-rail separation for the Kitchener Line being located closer to Mount Pleasant, not Bramalea. I was under the impression that one near Bramalea and Mount Pleasant would be needed but maybe Metrolinx has already determined they only need one near Mount Pleasant.

I know this has been discussed in this threat previously in terms of which side of the tracks GO and CN would use between Georgetown and Bramalea.

 

[Markster]

If you look at the RER report from December 2014 that went to the Metrolinx Board (page 28 here), they actually talk about the rail-to-rail separation for the Kitchener Line being located closer to Mount Pleasant, not Bramalea.

Yeah, I misremembered that. Thanks for the link to the document itself.

 

[cbrown2009]

I'm not quite clear on the location. Is ML actually referring to the rail to rail crossing just west of Downtown Brampton Go or is there a rail to rail junction west of Mount Pleasant that I've never seen?

 

[Allandale25]

I'm not quite clear on the location. Is ML actually referring to the rail to rail crossing just west of Downtown Brampton Go or is there a rail to rail junction west of Mount Pleasant that I've never seen?

The location would be between the CN Credit River bridge in the West and the GO Transit Mount Pleasant station in the East. See here for a map. My understanding from reading previous comments is that you would have a South side track slope down at a 2% grade and go under the other set of tracks (this would mean the freight trains would not have to deal with a grade) and rise to become a North side track. It would be similar to the rail-to-rail separation that is located between Spadina and Bathurst. Except instead of the Spadina-Bathurst arrangement (tracks from the North side going to the South side) the Mount Pleasant-Credit River version would go South-to-North).

I believe the Milton line separation would also go South-to-North. Not sure about the one near Bayview Junction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

No, its not a crossing. Its to allow GO trains to pass around CNs trains unimpeded. CN has their trains enter the corridor from the north and then exit from the south, so GO and CN service needs to cross over at some point. That point can be located anywhere in the 20km or so that GO and CN interline, so they are planning it north of Mt. Pleasant as its easier to construct with no subdivisions surrounding it. Its supposed to go between Mississauga Road and Winston Churchill Boulevard.

I also wouldn't be surprised if they make it with a smaller grade than normal to allow faster speeds through it for HSR, the province won't want the HSR train to have to slow down to 75mph like it will have to for the new structures in Georgetown south. At least a 100mph design speed is probably going to be expected, so I think you will see it with less than a 2% grade. They have 3km of length there with no road crossings (well, there is one, bt, so they certainly have the space.

 

[smallspy]

I also wouldn't be surprised if they make it with a smaller grade than normal to allow faster speeds through it for HSR, the province won't want the HSR train to have to slow down to 75mph like it will have to for the new structures in Georgetown south. At least a 100mph design speed is probably going to be expected, so I think you will see it with less than a 2% grade. They have 3km of length there with no road crossings (well, there is one, bt, so they certainly have the space.

High-speed trains can handle steeper grades than freights - the current max on France's LGVs is 4%, and the max in Japan is similar.

The issue, however, is going to be curvature, and more specifically, vertical curvature. The maximum potential speeds through the Weston and Strachan grade separations are limited to 70 or 75mph because if it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thanks for the clarification, so the limiting factor isn't the the grade itself but rather how fast the tracks change grades? I'm amazed Metrolinx didn't just make them 100mph then, that doesn't sound like too expensive of a change.

 

[mdrejhon]

Maybe they partially planned for it? Could they re-grade later? If there's plenty of diggable stuff underneath the tracks (just dirt and ballast, no roads/metros/pipes underneaths), they could easily regrade the tracks later. Tracks can be regraded gradually inches at a time overnight without shutting down service or for a weekend -- it's been done before. Huge trackside machine lifts track, digs or adds ballast, lower track. This is also done for lateral track shifting, e.g. shifting the tracks sideways small amounts at a time, to make room for new trackage or make tracks straighter. Several weekends later, with no weekday service shutdowns, you've upgraded your speed rating from a series of gentle successive weekend regradings and trackshifts. I imagine that a process can be invented to nurse the grade curvature to 100mph later.

Some showstoppers:
- Mix of being overpasses & being underpasses, make it complicated to re-grade. There are many sections of Georgetown corridor that goes over roads, so you can't sink the tracks easily.
- More trenchwall may need to be added, as they make the grade curvature gentler for faster high speed trains. Did they make the existing trenchwall deep enough for future modifications; etc.
- Complications underneath (e.g. pipes, rock, etc)

HSR regrading wouldn't be something they need for about 15 years (10 years my arse, it's gonna be at least 15). So it may not be something they needed right away. Get something built quickly, but design/plan it in a way for future regrading. Maybe overpasses/underpasses down the rail restricted the grade curvature. THAT would be the more expensive part, and limits the re-grading options, and may explain the 75ph limit. Otherwise, to meet HSR grading criteria, you may end up having to convert down-track overpasses over roads into underpasses underneath roads. This process can become incredibly complicated.

 

[smallspy]

I'm sure your aware of the pitiful of such and I doubt its something that GO would ever seriously consider but others may not be aware. 4% is certainly not desirable from a train handling perspective and it would troublesome for diesel hauled 12 or 10 pack bi-level trains which I believe is still the long term plan for local service beyond Mount Pleasant. The thought of a 4% grade gives me chills just thinking about it considering the problems we've had in the past with the 1% grade entering into the Kingston sub after taking a run at it from the USRC and there wouldn't be much time to accelerate an MP40 lead 12-pack leaving MP. I suppose our momentum could carry us through a short uphill stretch but can you imagine what would happen if a train went into emergency and ended up stopping anywhere within tunnel? Shit, we can barely get out of the USCR flyunder when we have to stop there, 4% would be impossible. We'd have to split the damn train apart and I'm not even sure using hand brakes alone would be enough to hold the none engine portion. Not that the brakes would bleed off in the couple of hours needed to make such a move, but the thought of such still makes me nervous.

I assume that you've been around long enough that you recall the special instructions regarding the flyunder.

But yeah, 4% is obviously not going to fly with the existing rolling stock. If the signal systems were modified to make it so that a train could never stop in it, than it wouldn't be much of a concern, since we're only talking about a 9 metre drop and rise - but with the freights around, CN would never allow it. The ruling grade on the Halton is a shade under 1%, so I suspect that CN would allow that as a max, and not the 2% that GO/Metrolinx has been using as their standard up to now.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[cbrown2009]

No, its not a crossing. Its to allow GO trains to pass around CNs trains unimpeded. CN has their trains enter the corridor from the north and then exit from the south, so GO and CN service needs to cross over at some point. That point can be located anywhere in the 20km or so that GO and CN interline, so they are planning it north of Mt. Pleasant as its easier to construct with no subdivisions surrounding it. Its supposed to go between Mississauga Road and Winston Churchill Boulevard.

Ok so we're talking a new basketweave. Would those logistics involve moving the Georgetown station platform to the north side as well? If I'm understanding things correctly?

 

[smallspy]

Would those logistics involve moving the Georgetown station platform to the north side as well? If I'm understanding things correctly?

A new mainline platform on the north side of the mainline was always planned as part of the expansion of that part of the corridor to three tracks.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Platform 27]

Ok so we're talking a new basketweave. Would those logistics involve moving the Georgetown station platform to the north side as well? If I'm understanding things correctly?

I think Georgetown's GO platforms are already north of the mainline. Only VIA stops on the south side, right?