Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[wopchop]

This has to stop......the Georgetown corridor was not prepped by UPe.....if anything the opposite. In addition to the $456 million direct cost for UPe, $1.2B of public funds went into the corridor. As I have said before, the saddest part of all of this is that we have spent that much public money (the $1.2B) on a public transit corridor and, today and for the near term, we actually have less public transit trains running on it than before the expenditure.......and they are being allowed by an unwitting media to get away without a) telling how they could do this without formulating a plan over the 4 or 5 years of construction on how to implement more service and b) release their plan to do so.

If you/they are going to say UPe is what will (some day) bring more public transit to the line they should man up and declare the cost of UPe is actually $1.656B.

(and that comes from someone who is largely a supporter of the UPe).



As I said, if the target, the measure of success, is 1.2 million riders....I have little doubt that they can achieve an average of 23 people per train with this price structure

I wouldn't be surprised. The Pacific-Western bus carried 190,000 riders in in 2013, with frequency approximately every 40 minutes and a total trip of ~ 1 hour. 10 years ago, they apparently carried 400,000. The article doesn't say what the frequency was like 10 years ago.

But if a hour-long bus ride for $27 can attract that many people, I think that a 25-minute train ride for that same price (or less, if Presto) can attract a lot more.

 

[LNahid2000]

Per direction, right?

Yes.

18 hours per day x 4 trains per hour x 2 directions = 144 trains per day

1.2 million rides / 365 days / 144 trains = 22.83 people per train.

 

[rbt]

To reach their target of 1.2million riders a year they need, on average, something like 23 people on each train. I may be in the minority but I think they have actually underestimated demand.

Heck, maybe they'll turn a non-trivial operating profit and assist with funding Pearson changes for that HSR stop.

 

[smallspy]

I wouldn't be surprised. The Pacific-Western bus carried 190,000 riders in in 2013, with frequency approximately every 40 minutes and a total trip of ~ 1 hour. 10 years ago, they apparently carried 400,000. The article doesn't say what the frequency was like 10 years ago.

But if a hour-long bus ride for $27 can attract that many people, I think that a 25-minute train ride for that same price (or less, if Presto) can attract a lot more.

The frequencies haven't varied very much over the years, but 10 years or so ago they had three routes - downtown, one to Islington Station and one to the YUS subway (I want to say York Mills, but I can't recall exactly). They ended the two subway routes shortly after the launch of the TTC's Airport Rocket.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

This has to stop......the Georgetown corridor was not prepped by UPe.....if anything the opposite. In addition to the $456 million direct cost for UPe, $1.2B of public funds went into the corridor. As I have said before, the saddest part of all of this is that we have spent that much public money (the $1.2B) on a public transit corridor and, today and for the near term, we actually have less public transit trains running on it than before the expenditure.......and they are being allowed by an unwitting media to get away without a) telling how they could do this without formulating a plan over the 4 or 5 years of construction on how to implement more service and b) release their plan to do so.

If you/they are going to say UPe is what will (some day) bring more public transit to the line they should man up and declare the cost of UPe is actually $1.656B.

(and that comes from someone who is largely a supporter of the UPe).

I'm confused, are you suggesting the $1.2 billion cannot be attributed to GO service? Or are you criticizing Metrolinx for not having a plan for increasing GO service?

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm confused, are you suggesting the $1.2 billion cannot be attributed to GO service? Or are you criticizing Metrolinx for not having a plan for increasing GO service?

At the moment both kinda but it was really just an emotional response to someone suggesting that UPe was what was laying the groundwork for increased service...when, in fact, it is the opposite....the expenditure in the corridor not attributed to UPe is what laid the groundwork for UPe and what allows the province to "only" attribute $456 million to the airport link.

As for the delay....I continue to think it is inexcusable that such a huge (and magnificent) project as GTS involving so much work and taking 4 - 5 years with the stated goal of increasing train service in the corridor could be undertaken without a concurrent plan to introduce the new service as soon as the work was done. I get (and appreciate) the comments/feedback from knowledgeable posters here that it is due to crew shortages.....but that just points out that they undertook this and did this (amazing) work but, as a transit agency, left out the important part - how to actually get trains running and servicing the public. So we are left with this very disturbing situation where we have spent $1.2B of money and are actually running less trains than we were before the investment.

It is also very interesting to me that in this era where the media have more of a transit focus than at any time in my memory that this is somehow kept a secret from/by them. Imagine if when the YUS extension work is done if the TTC quietly still did not run trains past Downsview....if, instead, they just carried on as they were and when asked by a member of the public said "We’re working to increase service over the next year. More information will be provided closer to the launch date".....I think there would be a few columns written about that.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

TOareafan, you've been defending UP this whole time, after the price reveal you cannot possibly think these people are honest. They're dragging their feet on all day service because they can. They also don't need to charge 27.50 for rail service, but they are.

 

[TOareaFan]

TOareafan, you've been defending UP this whole time, after the price reveal you cannot possibly think these people are honest. They're dragging their feet on all day service because they can. They also don't need to charge 27.50 for rail service, but they are.

Like I said a few posts ago...I do support UPe.....and I don't think the fare for people in the GTA is $27 it is $19 unless you volunteer to pay the higher fare......but that does not exclude me from being critical of how they are handling the other part of this project....the bigger public expenditure on the GTS project should lead to increased service immediately and there should be a much larger public outcry over an expenditure of that size not leading to increased public transit.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Like I said a few posts ago...I do support UPe.....and I don't think the fare for people in the GTA is $27 it is $19 unless you volunteer to pay the higher fare......but that does not exclude me from being critical of how they are handling the other part of this project....the bigger public expenditure on the GTS project should lead to increased service immediately and there should be a much larger public outcry over an expenditure of that size not leading to increased public transit.

The tourist fare is 27.50 it's still a charge, and it does exclude you from being critical because you UPe is their priority and not rail service to Brampton, so you can't get mad that no rail service is coming now, when they bascially said last year their priority was UPe. If they want, rail service to Mount Pleasant could have started in August.

 

[TOareaFan]

The tourist fare is 27.50 it's still a charge, and it does exclude you from being critical because you UPe is their priority and not rail service to Brampton, so you can't get mad that no rail service is coming now, when they bascially said last year their priority was UPe. If they want, rail service to Mount Pleasant could have started in August.

UPe and the GTS were both planned, conceived and started years ago....at that time it was not "one or the other" (and to be fair to ML that is not what they are saying now)......there were two promises years ago...1) a direct link to the airport and 2) return of cancelled trains and increased service on the Georgetown (now KW line). One promise is being met and the other is not only not being met they are being allowed to be silent on why it is not being met and when it will be met.

While, obviously, I have a personal interest in this line I think there really should be outrage all over the GTA about this. Transit funds are not infinite and we simply can't allow for money to be spent anywhere without it having a fast and long lasting impact on our transit systems. GO/ML love to tweet with the hashtag #transitprogress when they talk about GTS.....what they have is #constructionprogress as #transitprogress does not happen until trains actually start rolling. Even the reason/excuse of crew shortages is just an indication of a monumental planning failure......they have had a huge amount of time to plan/hire/train crews during this period....and they have not done so.

Perhaps they are just surprised that this incredible project is actually complete on schedule and they thought they had an extra year or so to get ready

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

UPe and the GTS were both planned, conceived and started years ago....at that time it was not "one or the other" (and to be fair to ML that is not what they are saying now)......there were two promises years ago...1) a direct link to the airport and 2) return of cancelled trains and increased service on the Georgetown (now KW line). One promise is being met and the other is not only not being met they are being allowed to be silent on why it is not being met and when it will be met.

While, obviously, I have a personal interest in this line I think there really should be outrage all over the GTA about this. Transit funds are not infinite and we simply can't allow for money to be spent anywhere without it having a fast and long lasting impact on our transit systems. GO/ML love to tweet with the hashtag #transitprogress when they talk about GTS.....what they have is #constructionprogress as #transitprogress does not happen until trains actually start rolling. Even the reason/excuse of crew shortages is just an indication of a monumental planning failure......they have had a huge amount of time to plan/hire/train crews during this period....and they have not done so.

Perhaps they are just surprised that this incredible project is actually complete on schedule and they thought they had an extra year or so to get ready

Yes... at that time. Since 2013, it's been clear UPX has been the priority. They had multiple chance since 2007 pretty much and nothing. UPX is the crown jewel of metrolinx . Everyone should be mad about this, because all day rail service is just as important as an airport service which overcharges tourists.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

At the moment both kinda but it was really just an emotional response to someone suggesting that UPe was what was laying the groundwork for increased service...when, in fact, it is the opposite....the expenditure in the corridor not attributed to UPe is what laid the groundwork for UPe and what allows the province to "only" attribute $456 million to the airport link.

As for the delay....I continue to think it is inexcusable that such a huge (and magnificent) project as GTS involving so much work and taking 4 - 5 years with the stated goal of increasing train service in the corridor could be undertaken without a concurrent plan to introduce the new service as soon as the work was done. I get (and appreciate) the comments/feedback from knowledgeable posters here that it is due to crew shortages.....but that just points out that they undertook this and did this (amazing) work but, as a transit agency, left out the important part - how to actually get trains running and servicing the public. So we are left with this very disturbing situation where we have spent $1.2B of money and are actually running less trains than we were before the investment.

It is also very interesting to me that in this era where the media have more of a transit focus than at any time in my memory that this is somehow kept a secret from/by them. Imagine if when the YUS extension work is done if the TTC quietly still did not run trains past Downsview....if, instead, they just carried on as they were and when asked by a member of the public said "We’re working to increase service over the next year. More information will be provided closer to the launch date".....I think there would be a few columns written about that.

I want to say GO is hesitant to promise a service level until other factors (rolling stock and crew availability, phasing of increases) are ironed out. That said, I believe I remember the province touting 2 trains as part of the Kitchener extension, well before construction started.

I get your point and agree. There should be something firm for GO service with the GTS project months from 100% completion.

 

[TOareaFan]

I want to say GO is hesitant to promise a service level until other factors (rolling stock and crew availability, phasing of increases) are ironed out. That said, I believe I remember the province touting 2 trains as part of the Kitchener extension, well before construction started.

I get your point and agree. There should be something firm for GO service with the GTS project months from 100% completion.

They were not hesitant to promise a service level at all. They promised that a) the trains cancelled were just to allow construction to commence less impeded and b) service would increase beyond that level to "up to 29 total trips". There was no hesitation in that and they promised it years ago knowing there would be 4 - 5 years to plan for this service level. They are only hesitant now that the day has arrived....they have issued emails and public statements that GTS is substantially complete and they are not ready to fulfill any of their promises.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I want to say GO is hesitant to promise a service level until other factors (rolling stock and crew availability, phasing of increases) are ironed out. That said, I believe I remember the province touting 2 trains as part of the Kitchener extension, well before construction started.

I get your point and agree. There should be something firm for GO service with the GTS project months from 100% completion.

They were not hesitant to promise a service level at all. They promised that a) the trains cancelled were just to allow construction to commence less impeded and b) service would increase beyond that level to "up to 29 total trips". There was no hesitation in that and they promised it years ago knowing there would be 4 - 5 years to plan for this service level. They are only hesitant now that the day has arrived....they have issued emails and public statements that GTS is substantially complete and they are not ready to fulfill any of their promises.

Sorry DVR I agree with TOArea. The excuses piling up from Metrolinx on this are getting irritating. They increased service on Lakeshore and not Milton, they have enough money to build another damn parking in YR but not to expand rail service?

 

[TOareaFan]

Sorry DVR I agree with TOArea. The excuses piling up from Metrolinx on this are getting irritating. They increased service on Lakeshore and not Milton, they have enough money to build another damn parking in YR but not to expand rail service?

As of today, it has been 1,738 days since the cancellation of some rail services to allow the project to proceed as quickly as possible. It would seem to me if the intent was to restore the cancelled services and/or bring on increased services upon completion of the GTS.....1,738 days is a sufficient planning window to do so.

The 5th anniversary of the cancelled trains will be April 3 of this year.....my money is on that there still are less trains running at that time than there was on April 2, 2010.....5 years and $1.2B later!