The Housing Market needs to crash.

[neubilder]

- suburbs are deceptively expensive.

Deceptively expensive for many reasons that may not be readily apparent to the average consumer. Things like gross inefficiency, reliance on automobile, squandered resources, and destruction of farmland and habitat. All for what really amounts to an impoverished form of community anyways. But most of us here on UT know that already.

 

[CN Tower]

Deceptively expensive for many reasons that may not be readily apparent to the average consumer. Things like gross inefficiency, reliance on automobile, squandered resources, and destruction of farmland and habitat. All for what really amounts to an impoverished form of community anyways. But most of us here on UT know that already.

Yes, Oakville looks so impoverished!

Neubilder, just because it's not the way you live does not make it the wrong way to live. Your dogmatic thinking is quite self-righteous and sanctimonious. The 'burbs are not my choice of locale either but I don't label those who enjoy that lifestyle as ecoterrorists. There is actually a calm rhythm to it out there, if bland and quiet is your preference. But it's safe and rather homogeneous. I know I lot of people who prefer that way of life and respect their preference. That's what Canada is about- freedom of choice.

Consumers with bigger and less efficient homes pay more taxes and higher electricity bills and more gas taxes as a result of their automobile use. Would love to see how well this country would function if the juicy revenues from gas taxes dried up. I think the whole Greenbelt thing has addressed the issue of farmland and habitat, you got me there chief!

But most of us here on UT know that already.

 

[neubilder]

Oakville, like similar elite communities has managed to emulate the small borough of yore. It's a nice place if you can afford to live there, at least in it's better parts. Most suburbs don't look like this. Even parts of Oakville look mass produced and built to last one generation. But as pleasant as Oakville is, if you must do the QEW rush hour commute every day, the charm wears off fast. If you are fortunate enough to work in Oakville then effectively you live in a small town, and not a suburb. Fantastic. The suburbs I find most regrettable are the ones that don't even offer a high quality of life. The cookie cutter suburbs with serpentine roads 60' wide that lead to nowhere, where the only shopping is in a strip-mall and the only way to get there is by car. Some of these places are really depressing and they only exist because developers bought cheap land and there were no better alternatives for people who are fixated on the 'ideal' of owning a detached house with a lawn. Google 'toronto suburbs' and you will see the nature of the typology to which I'm referring.

With respect to the Greenbelt, It's a great thing if it can be enforced, but as good as it is, it's still too little too late. From the CN tower you must travel roughly 50-60 KM's in any direction to escape the sprawl. This is appalling. And it's getting worse. Even in London it's less than 30km's in any direction to the countryside, and it's actual countryside when you get there. (I realize part of Toronto's problem is that it has only one direction to grow due to the lake)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes, Oakville looks so impoverished!

Neubilder, just because it's not the way you live does not make it the wrong way to live. Your dogmatic thinking is quite self-righteous and sanctimonious. The 'burbs are not my choice of locale either but I don't label those who enjoy that lifestyle as ecoterrorists. There is actually a calm rhythm to it out there, if bland and quiet is your preference. But it's safe and rather homogeneous. I know I lot of people who prefer that way of life and respect their preference. That's what Canada is about- freedom of choice.

Consumers with bigger and less efficient homes pay more taxes and higher electricity bills and more gas taxes as a result of their automobile use. Would love to see how well this country would function if the juicy revenues from gas taxes dried up. I think the whole Greenbelt thing has addressed the issue of farmland and habitat, you got me there chief!

But most of us here on UT know that already.

I lived out here. It blows.

 

[RC8]

Would love to see how well this country would function if the juicy revenues from gas taxes dried up.

Assuming people didn't rely on gas (or a substitute energy source) and instead took public transportation, biked, or walked, then we'd all be much richer.

The money that people currently spend in gas in enormous. If people don't drive as much that's an extra $50 a week per driver that'd be going back into the local economy instead of being burnt.

The government would need a much smaller budget if people lived closer together and used less roads, too.

 

[neubilder]

Yes, Oakville looks so impoverished!

Consumers with bigger and less efficient homes pay more taxes and higher electricity bills and more gas taxes as a result of their automobile use. Would love to see how well this country would function if the juicy revenues from gas taxes dried up. I think the whole Greenbelt thing has addressed the issue of farmland and habitat, you got me there chief!

But most of us here on UT know that already.

Did you just state that energy revenues are essential to our economy and therefore we must not conserve?

 

[figaro]

The government would need a much smaller budget if people lived closer together and used less roads, too.

Many people don't seem to realize that. For example, if people are not crazy enough to live in Vaughan and commute to downtown to work everyday, the city didn't have to spend $billion to extend that subway. Instead the money could have been used to improved transit and other service in a more compact and efficient Toronto. Yet they insist it is just a lifestyle choice and refuse to admit that their choice actually put a financial burden on everyone else.

 

[jeff316]

Deceptively expensive for many reasons that may not be readily apparent to the average consumer. Things like gross inefficiency, reliance on automobile, squandered resources, and destruction of farmland and habitat.

The personal pet peeve of mine is transit costs. One person taking the GO Train and TTC into work from somewhere like Oshawa or Burlington can cost 400$ a month. And you'll still need your car. I love the burbs but ouch.

dude, when someone doesn't make a LOT of money, why does he think he is entitled to a "detached"? what's wrong with sharing walls with neighbours.

Try to accept the fact that in Toronto, DETACHED homes are for the rich people. It is not average working people should expect to own, much like when you make $60K a year you don't expect to fly business or first class when travelling. Detached houses (or even semi-detached) are a luxury and not a nececity. The earlier we accept that, the less painful it will be.

But it was was average working people expected to own, or were told that's what they should strive for. That's why there are more detached than semis in Toronto. From the 2006 census, ~30 percent of Toronto's housing stock was detached. Rows, semis and townes added up to ~17% if you include duplexes. Things have defintiely changed since 2006, but the white picket fence American dream home generally hasn't shared a wall.

But we're not just talking about Toronto proper. Detached housing has been extraordinarily affordable in many parts of the GTA for long periods of time. GTA-wide, detached accounted for 43 percent of all housing in 2006. In some communities, it is likely 60 or 70 percent of the total.

The last generation and a half of people who grew up in your typical detached suburban house may or may not be immediately accepting of the fact that when they're ready to start their families, they need to be looking to downsize in size and space from what they had as kids, and they're not going to be saving a whack of dough in exchange either.

It's not a value judgement on semis or townes or whathaveyou. It's an observation.

 

[js97]

The cookie cutter suburbs with serpentine roads 60' wide that lead to nowhere, where the only shopping is in a strip-mall and the only way to get there is by car. Some of these places are really depressing and they only exist because developers bought cheap land and there were no better alternatives for people who are fixated on the 'ideal' of owning a detached house with a lawn. Google 'toronto suburbs' and you will see the nature of the typology to which I'm referring.

This is obviously more of a culture and personal prejudice than anything more universal. If you want to talk about 'Cookie Cutter' neighbourhoods, you should take a look at footprint and layouts of the Semis in Riverdale/Leaside, or perhaps the large homes by Roncesvalles/ highpark. They where all once large development 'cookie cutter' homes. It's taken generations (literally) by way of different owners contributing their own uniqueness that's given the neighbourhood their so called 'charm'. Give the burbs a few generations, and you'll see the same unique and charm.

Try growing up in a urban center like Singapore, India, China, or even Rome where it's trully dense urban living, and you'll understand why there are plenty of people that want the a detached home with a backyard.

 

[neubilder]

This is obviously more of a culture and personal prejudice than anything more universal. If you want to talk about 'Cookie Cutter' neighbourhoods, you should take a look at footprint and layouts of the Semis in Riverdale/Leaside, or perhaps the large homes by Roncesvalles/ highpark. They where all once large development 'cookie cutter' homes. It's taken generations (literally) by way of different owners contributing their own uniqueness that's given the neighbourhood their so called 'charm'. Give the burbs a few generations, and you'll see the same unique and charm.

Try growing up in a urban center like Singapore, India, China, or even Rome where it's trully dense urban living, and you'll understand why there are plenty of people that want the a detached home with a backyard.

I can't speak to Asia, but there are very marked differences between the older "cookie cutter suburbs" such as Roncy and even the new cookie cutter suburbs in Leslieville, and that is related to dependance on the automobile. In the absence of cars many of the suburbs surrounding Toronto would have to be abandoned. There is also a qualitative difference between the older inner-city suburbs and many of the crappy ones being built today.

 

[CN Tower]

I can't speak to Asia, but there are very marked differences between the older "cookie cutter suburbs" such as Roncy and even the new cookie cutter suburbs in Leslieville, and that is related to dependance on the automobile. In the absence of cars many of the suburbs surrounding Toronto would have to be abandoned. There is also a qualitative difference between the older inner-city suburbs and many of the crappy ones being built today.

What's truly amazing is just how fully you detest cars and I can't fathom my life without one- the practicalities of travel, the convenience, the comfort, the personal space. Amazing!

The difference of course is that I don't begrudge or criticize your lifestyle choice while you attempt to discredit mine. Fascinating indeed!

 

[RC8]

What's truly amazing is just how fully you detest cars and I can't fathom my life without one- the practicalities of travel, the convenience, the comfort, the personal space. Amazing!

The difference of course is that I don't begrudge or criticize your lifestyle choice while you attempt to discredit mine. Fascinating indeed!

How would you like driving a car in a place where streets are too tight for motorised vehicles? That's what it feels like to bike or walk in many parts of this city.

 

[CN Tower]

How would you like driving a car in a place where streets are too tight for motorised vehicles? That's what it feels like to bike or walk in many parts of this city.

Funny because I bike/walk/run/blade all over the city frequently and never have that issue. The streetcar track do scare me though. They get really slippery at times. They should be buried underground!

 

[RC8]

Funny because I bike/walk/run/blade all over the city frequently and never have that issue. The streetcar track do scare me though. They get really slippery at times. They should be buried underground!

Mail the province a cheque covering the costs to do so and they'll happily get on it. Alternatively convince the citizens of Toronto to pay for it by, say, paying a vehicle registration tax and road tolls... Good luck!

 

[figaro]

What's truly amazing is just how fully you detest cars and I can't fathom my life without one- the practicalities of travel, the convenience, the comfort, the personal space. Amazing!

The difference of course is that I don't begrudge or criticize your lifestyle choice while you attempt to discredit mine. Fascinating indeed!

Of course he has the right to criticize.
The problem with car dependent ife style is that these drivers pay no where near the true econonomic cost for the pressure they put on infrastructure needs, resources, and the environment. Just imagine if everyone in China and India and Africa lives such a life too, what the world and its resources will be like.

You can't fathom life without a car is because you were born and raise in suburban North America. If you are forced to live in an Asian or European city, you will adapt to urban life sooner than you think and appreciate the convenience too.