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Transit Inspirations for Toronto

The Lima system looks a bit like what I suspect the Mississauga BRT Transitway (along Highway 403) and the 407 Transitway through York Region will look like, except they will run in a separate road along one side of the expressways.
 
The Lima system looks a bit like what I suspect the Mississauga BRT Transitway (along Highway 403) and the 407 Transitway through York Region will look like, except they will run in a separate road along one side of the expressways.

See: Transitway in Ottawa between Pinecrest and Bayshore (coordinates for Google Earth: 45.347091, -75.795315), and between the Train Station and Blair Rd (45.426946, -75.616094). Pretty much the same configuration you're describing. Sorry for the coordinates, I couldn't find image examples on google.

EDIT: The Pincrest section is relatively new, and in Google Earth is still partly under construction.
 
I thought that Transit City with light rail rapid transit all over the city of Toronto was inspirational. It certainly was and is better than the buses that currently go along the routes presented.

I personally am a big fan of LRT, particularly on Eglinton, but I think buses (the same ones we currently use) could provide almost the same level of service if we give them right-of-ways down the centre of many streets, like Sheppard, Finch, Steeles, Don Mills, Hwy 27, Kingston Rd, and wherever there's room for an exclusive lane and 2 car lanes in each direction. It would be much easier to convert those to LRT in the future if needed.
 
I personally am a big fan of LRT, particularly on Eglinton, but I think buses (the same ones we currently use) could provide almost the same level of service if we give them right-of-ways down the centre of many streets, like Sheppard, Finch, Steeles, Don Mills, Hwy 27, Kingston Rd, and wherever there's room for an exclusive lane and 2 car lanes in each direction. It would be much easier to convert those to LRT in the future if needed.

+1. If you're trying to deliver improved service quickly, with widespread coverage, BRT is the way to go. And you're right, converting BRT to LRT or subway is a lot easier than upgrading LRT to subway, or a higher degree of LRT.
 
+1. If you're trying to deliver improved service quickly, with widespread coverage, BRT is the way to go. And you're right, converting BRT to LRT or subway is a lot easier than upgrading LRT to subway, or a higher degree of LRT.

Agreed. We could cover a much larger portion of the city with BRT than we ever could with LRT.
 
Agreed. We could cover a much larger portion of the city with BRT than we ever could with LRT.

It's the exact same argument that pro-LRT people use to favour LRT expansion over subway expansion (ie: "we can build more of it for the same cost").
 
It's the exact same argument that pro-LRT people use to favour LRT expansion over subway expansion (ie: "we can build more of it for the same cost").

If the price of diesel fuel increases in proportion to the increase in the price of electricity, BRT might. However, that is unlikely.
 
I personally am a big fan of LRT, particularly on Eglinton, but I think buses (the same ones we currently use) could provide almost the same level of service if we give them right-of-ways down the centre of many streets, like Sheppard, Finch, Steeles, Don Mills, Hwy 27, Kingston Rd, and wherever there's room for an exclusive lane and 2 car lanes in each direction.

Instead of BRT on Finch or Steeles, it would be much easier to create a busway on the hydro corridor that runs across the top of Toronto. Much easier than setting aside bus lanes on the older stretches of Finch or Steeles around Yonge Street that I would argue can't handle the BRT configuration you're talking about.
 
It's the exact same argument that pro-LRT people use to favour LRT expansion over subway expansion (ie: "we can build more of it for the same cost").

The cost-benefit trade off is different when we compare LRT to BRT and LRT to Subways.

At grade LRT provides higher capacity but similar speeds when compared to BRT. The premium is paid for higher capacity.

Grade separated subways provides higher capacity but also higher speeds when compared to at grade LRT. The premium is paid for higher capacity, but also higher speeds.
 
If the price of diesel fuel increases in proportion to the increase in the price of electricity, BRT might. However, that is unlikely.

I'm more advocating putting exclusive lanes on many corridors that don't look like they'll get LRT in the foreseeable future (or even have plans for, like hwy 27 or kingston rd). It's more to drastically improve services, rather then increase capacity, although this comes with better flowing buses.

As well, you save a lot of diesel by not crawling in traffic, and are able to operate fewer vehicles if they can move along the route faster. Also, this is more speculation, but buses speeding alongside gridlocked traffic will greatly increase they're attractiveness, and make much better cases for LRT conversion in the future.
 
Instead of BRT on Finch or Steeles, it would be much easier to create a busway on the hydro corridor that runs across the top of Toronto. Much easier than setting aside bus lanes on the older stretches of Finch or Steeles around Yonge Street that I would argue can't handle the BRT configuration you're talking about.

Finch is narrow near Yonge, but is wide enough around Dufferin or Bathurst and westward. Perhaps a branch bus service could use the hydro corridor closer to Yonge, but I think it's important to run a service on Finch, as that's really were the people are, and where they're going. The hydro corridor should be reserved for future longer-distance rail services.
 
I'm just wondering about BRT in Toronto.
One pro about BRT lanes is that any bus route can use them. But, unless your building a transitway like in Ottawa, i think BRT doesn't improve service that much compared to an LRT.
Where I'm living now they have BRT on many major roads. They don't seem to give the buses signal priority here, because there are so many different buses using the bus lanes.
This seriously slows down the buses because of bunching at stations. Especially when the sections of the BRT lanes are like this:

major intersections (traffic signals without priority) -------- BRT station (traffic signal for pedestrian crossing with no priority)------------major intersection (traffic signal without priority)

The bunching and delay at these stations are pretty bad. I'm wondering if Toronto was to build BRT lanes, would they be used by several different routes or a single dedicated route.

The fact that LRT trains are longer, will be the only service operating in there lanes and can use signal priority make them a better choice.

The LRT trains are longer, thus more passengers per train. In BRT you need several buses to match the same service. Since there are more vehicles and more than one driver, BRT can be affected by the driver and the acceleration of the buses. What I'm trying to say is that there can be a lot of unneeded stop and go in BRT, especially when bunching occurs. In the BRT lanes I have seen, this has been the cases, especially when you are at stations with a line up of buses and transit signals without priority.

LRT seems better to me because there will only be LRT vehicles operating in the lanes, at scheduled intervals. They will pull into the station much like a subway and depart after a few seconds of boarding time. Buses will start to pull away, but are sometimes stopped by late passengers. The bus passengers are usually desperate to catch their bus because it might be awhile before the exact route they need will come again, but with LRT it will be just a few minutes before the next train comes.

Since the LRT are the only vehicles using the lanes and run on a more accurate schedule it makes transit signal priority possible. The train will approach the light, pass through with priority, and then the traffic will resume as normal until the next train comes. With BRT signal priority isn't possible unless it is used by a single dedicate route. If the lane is used by different bus routes, they will come early, late and in bunches and it will make signal priority almost impossible.

Any ways, I think BRT and LRT are both great improvements, but one thing I've noticed here in Korea is that they don't just build one transit option. Almost all the streets that have BRT have subway lines underneath them. I think this is a great approach. The buses fill the gaps between the subway stations or just be used over preference. I know if I'm going a long way I'll usually take the subway/express regional rail, but if I'm going someplace a few subway stops away I'll take a bus.

I think it highlights the importance of a network of different integrated systems not just one type.
LRT and BRT would be great additions to the Toronto system. If they could just build something...

I just want to also add, I don't know how long the planning took, but I saw them build a bus lane outside my apartment (i'm guessing around 5-10km) They moved all the utilities, took down pedestrian bridges over the roads, changed the sidewalks, built the stations, new intersections and started service in about 6-7 months.
 
The cost-benefit trade off is different when we compare LRT to BRT and LRT to Subways.

At grade LRT provides higher capacity but similar speeds when compared to BRT. The premium is paid for higher capacity.

Grade separated subways provides higher capacity but also higher speeds when compared to at grade LRT. The premium is paid for higher capacity, but also higher speeds.

Is a moderate increase in capacity really worth the 66% increase in capital costs, especially when that extra capacity isn't really needed?
 

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