Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

In my head ONR and OSR are the same, just branded to match their geography. But you can certainly merge the branding too and call it ONRail, for example.

Ontario Northland Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JJTheJetPln]

Just thinking out loud, but imagine if Ontario’s intercity rail network eventually evolved into something like this:

• Alto: a true high-speed spine linking Quebec City–Montreal–Ottawa–Toronto, via whichever corridor ultimately makes the most sense.
• VIA Rail Canada: Maintains non-Alto services on the corridor. More the "milk run" on the corridor, plus the important services to Windsor.
• Ontario Northland: Union–Timmins/Cochrane–Moosonee, plus restoring service between North Bay and Sudbury, and taking over Via's White River corridor—with potential to push further west over time.
• Ontario Southland (hypothetical): a southern Ontario-focused operator, taking on the northern corridor from VIA and running frequent service to Sarnia via London–Brampton–Union. Possibly also the Niagara run, especially if it can be expanded down towards Welland.
• GO Transit: The true regional rail system for the GGH, with the possibility of expanding a similar model to Ottawa down the line.

Not fully thought through, but the idea would be a clearer division of roles. VIA suffers from having to be too many things, and this would free it from that, at least in Ontario.

I think this is a good idea, but I would also like to see Mississauga in the mix too if they can somehow figure their stuff out with the way rail runs through their city.

At the end of the day, I would like to see more commuter rails to connect people to other parts of the province as a way to connect everyone to more resources, and even help drive tourism. However, the reality is that many of the rails that existed in the past were shuttered due to low ridership and funding. We'd need to dive into policy and figure out how to get these things going and how to maintain them in a more cost effective way.

 

[micheal_can]

I think this is a good idea, but I would also like to see Mississauga in the mix too if they can somehow figure their stuff out with the way rail runs through their city.

At the end of the day, I would like to see more commuter rails to connect people to other parts of the province as a way to connect everyone to more resources, and even help drive tourism. However, the reality is that many of the rails that existed in the past were shuttered due to low ridership and funding. We'd need to dive into policy and figure out how to get these things going and how to maintain them in a more cost effective way.

What is interesting is most cities, if they still have rail, or rail corridors would benefit from it. Heck, even where I live in Sudbury, we have the rails if we ever had the funding and the population, we could have something decent. The problem is not the ideas of where the next projects should be, but the funding. How do we properly fund a commuter line between London and Toronto for instance? It is why all rail projects the governments do is all politics. The Northlander's return is politics. So, there needs to be the political capital to spend to get it to happen.

 

[Bordercollie]

If it's just to North Bay and they are short on trains they could lease a GO train set. It's not as comfortable but between Toronto and cottage country you may have trains sold out.

 

[lenaitch]

I think this is a good idea, but I would also like to see Mississauga in the mix too if they can somehow figure their stuff out with the way rail runs through their city.

At the end of the day, I would like to see more commuter rails to connect people to other parts of the province as a way to connect everyone to more resources, and even help drive tourism. However, the reality is that many of the rails that existed in the past were shuttered due to low ridership and funding. We'd need to dive into policy and figure out how to get these things going and how to maintain them in a more cost effective way.

No, the reality is rail lines were abandoned because they lost their revenue base, which is freight. I can think of no rail line that relied solely on passenger service for revenue. Even in areas of high frequency and ridership, passenger rail is still subsidized.

Heck, even where I live in Sudbury, we have the rails if we ever had the funding and the population, we could have something decent.

But that's the crux of it, isn't it? You admit that Sudbury, with a population of about 187,000 and density of about 52/sqkm doesn't currently have the population to support passenger rail, how it is that hundreds of track miles through very lightly populated areas somehow does.

GO and ONR are the same thing, but they are very different They are both railway companies owned by the government of Ontario. They both have their own charters. They both have their own mandates.

As in all things government, the existence of GO and the ONR is governed by legislation (VIA should be so lucky) and they both get to do what the government says they can and pays them for. Canadian railways don't have 'charters'; although the CPR might have originally. GO is a division of Metrolinx under the Metrolinx Act. Metrolinx has a defined area of service (rail and bus) and, interestingly, London isn't in it. If you read the two pieces of legislation, Metrolinx isn't really described as a railway company but as a 'transportation authority'; whereas the ONR is described as a railway company. They get to haul freight; Metrolinx does not.

 

[micheal_can]

But that's the crux of it, isn't it? You admit that Sudbury, with a population of about 187,000 and density of about 52/sqkm doesn't currently have the population to support passenger rail, how it is that hundreds of track miles through very lightly populated areas somehow does.

To quote Moe from the Simpsons:"Hey, if wishes were horses, I'd be eating wish meat every night."

I have levels of thinking to where future rail projects could be. That is why my more ludicrous ones I do not share. This is on that spectrum, and I know how close to ludicrous it is. There are so many rail projects that would be much more viable, even in Northern ON that a commuter rail type system, although it would be nice is so far down the list it really can only exist in my head...and others who think it is a great thing...

CPR approached to relocate downtown tracks

BY KEITH LACEY klacey@northernlife.ca Back in the 1960s, there were detailed plans in place to relocate the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) yards from downtown and build a huge retail and residential project called Elgin Square.

www.sudbury.com

Plan from 1979.

https://sudbury2050.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Rail-Relocation-Study-Phase-II-interim-Diamond-1979.pdf

The least ludicrous thing I would suggest after opening the Northlander and it becoming a success would be SSM - Sudbury - North Bay - Toronto. However, we are likely looking at over $200m in track repairs alone. But, if the province decided to buy the Newmarket sub without much information about it being sold before the release, who knows what ludicrous thing is going to happen up here next.

As in all things government, the existence of GO and the ONR is governed by legislation (VIA should be so lucky) and they both get to do what the government says they can and pays them for. Canadian railways don't have 'charters'; although the CPR might have originally. GO is a division of Metrolinx under the Metrolinx Act. Metrolinx has a defined area of service (rail and bus) and, interestingly, London isn't in it. If you read the two pieces of legislation, Metrolinx isn't really described as a railway company but as a 'transportation authority'; whereas the ONR is described as a railway company. They get to haul freight; Metrolinx does not.

And like every act out there, it can be changed if there is ever the need to change it.So, if there was a strong desire to have commuter services to London, then they would do what is needed to change the act. Or, they would make a new one covering the new area. Or they make one that encompasses the entire province. Our legal framework is not as ridged as you make it sound.

Regardless,I am not holding my breath for anything else happening with the Northlander, ONR or any other Northern ON rail projects till at least the late 2030s, if at all.

 

[lenaitch]

To quote Moe from the Simpsons:"Hey, if wishes were horses, I'd be eating wish meat every night."

I have levels of thinking to where future rail projects could be. That is why my more ludicrous ones I do not share. This is on that spectrum, and I know how close to ludicrous it is. There are so many rail projects that would be much more viable, even in Northern ON that a commuter rail type system, although it would be nice is so far down the list it really can only exist in my head...and others who think it is a great thing...

CPR approached to relocate downtown tracks

BY KEITH LACEY klacey@northernlife.ca Back in the 1960s, there were detailed plans in place to relocate the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) yards from downtown and build a huge retail and residential project called Elgin Square.

www.sudbury.com

Plan from 1979.

https://sudbury2050.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Rail-Relocation-Study-Phase-II-interim-Diamond-1979.pdf

The least ludicrous thing I would suggest after opening the Northlander and it becoming a success would be SSM - Sudbury - North Bay - Toronto. However, we are likely looking at over $200m in track repairs alone. But, if the province decided to buy the Newmarket sub without much information about it being sold before the release, who knows what ludicrous thing is going to happen up here next.

When the discussions in your head get written down in a public forum, expect comment (or to be ignored).

And like every act out there, it can be changed if there is ever the need to change it.So, if there was a strong desire to have commuter services to London, then they would do what is needed to change the act. Or, they would make a new one covering the new area. Or they make one that encompasses the entire province. Our legal framework is not as ridged as you make it sound.

I wasn't aware that I was describing the system as "ridged" [sic], or even rigid. But it does need political will - and money.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

No, the reality is rail lines were abandoned because they lost their revenue base, which is freight. I can think of no rail line that relied solely on passenger service for revenue. Even in areas of high frequency and ridership, passenger rail is still subsidized.

You're right, and it is indeed a shame when that's what it comes down to. I've never been around the area, but maybe I'll contribute a trip or two.

 

[micheal_can]

When the discussions in your head get written down in a public forum, expect comment (or to be ignored).

I have accepted that.

I wasn't aware that I was describing the system as "ridged" [sic], or even rigid. But it does need political will - and money.

Most,including yourself talk in absolute terms. And the Northlander is a great showcase of the realities of how things work. Go back in 2012. No one thought any government,let alone a PC government that cut some of the earlier things would ever bring it back. Once it was announced, no one thought it would use new equipment.It has always been forced to use used equipment. And of course, no one would have suggested that they would buy the Newmarket Sub. So, as a dreamer, I can see each of these things being a possibility. Had I suggested them, I would be blocked and reported. Better idea is if you do not agree, just scroll on by. Remember, some of us do have connections that will speak 'off the record' about stuff. Some of us can hear something and extrapolate ideas to make it better. For example, you want commuter rail to London, then it would not surprise me to hear Metrolinx buys the Guelph Sub.

 

[nfitz]

When the discussions in your head get written down in a public forum, expect comment (or to be ignored)

For the love of Jove, try the latter.

I wonder if there's an option to block replies to those who are blocked.

 

[lenaitch]

Remember, some of us do have connections that will speak 'off the record' about stuff.

I, too, have a 'connection', but respect his confidentiality unless he specifically waives it. For example, I knew about the Newmarket sub purchase back in November.

 

[micheal_can]

I, too, have a 'connection', but respect his confidentiality unless he specifically waives it. For example, I knew about the Newmarket sub purchase back in November.

I respect those who want to remain silent on things. TBH,I will never give someone's name or position unless they specifically say.

They knew in November? I wonder how far back the official plan to buy it goes back. Maybe part of the original costing was including the purchase.

 

[lenaitch]

I respect those who want to remain silent on things. TBH,I will never give someone's name or position unless they specifically say.

They knew in November? I wonder how far back the official plan to buy it goes back. Maybe part of the original costing was including the purchase.

It does not appear in the Business Plan.

I suspect 'they' knew long before November - that's when I heard about it. Any multi-million acquisition by a government would follow a circuitous route of approvals, not only in terms of accounting but also in terms of politics, timing, etc. Navigating large-scale acquisitions through government is a wonderous thing to behold. Obtaining Management Board approval is complex and timing consuming. I was involved in a few and learned early on that simply saying 'the Premier announced it' doesn't cut it. It doesn't even have to involve something that big. I was involved in a quite minor implementation of an unenacted part of a provincial statute, but an election was coming up so the internal paranoia was in overdrive. In government, decision-making often isn't normal.

Withholding names is often not sufficient. The mere disclosure of information before it is intended can complicate and even threaten courses of action. If nothing else, sometimes information is only known at certain levels so disclosing it can put a spotlight on very few people. This certainly isn't that big a deal, but there is a reason budgets are historically released after the stock market closes. Remember that putting something on the Internet is equivalent to telling the whole world.

 

[micheal_can]

It does not appear in the Business Plan.

I suspect 'they' knew long before November - that's when I heard about it. Any multi-million acquisition by a government would follow a circuitous route of approvals, not only in terms of accounting but also in terms of politics, timing, etc. Navigating large-scale acquisitions through government is a wonderous thing to behold. Obtaining Management Board approval is complex and timing consuming. I was involved in a few and learned early on that simply saying 'the Premier announced it' doesn't cut it. It doesn't even have to involve something that big. I was involved in a quite minor implementation of an unenacted part of a provincial statute, but an election was coming up so the internal paranoia was in overdrive. In government, decision-making often isn't normal.

Withholding names is often not sufficient. The mere disclosure of information before it is intended can complicate and even threaten courses of action. If nothing else, sometimes information is only known at certain levels so disclosing it can put a spotlight on very few people. This certainly isn't that big a deal, but there is a reason budgets are historically released after the stock market closes. Remember that putting something on the Internet is equivalent to telling the whole world.

I am kinda curious how that was kept so quiet. In this day and age of things leaking like a sieve, it is amazing that nowhere on the internet was that sale even hinted at. It sounds like it may have been in some more secretive plan that showed "the real costs" of getting the line up and running again. It does make me wonder if the thing that I think of are actually working their way through the various management boards with no public notice till they see it as a done deal.

Thank you for letting me take a peak into the window.

 

[lenaitch]

I am kinda curious how that was kept so quiet. In this day and age of things leaking like a sieve, it is amazing that nowhere on the internet was that sale even hinted at. It sounds like it may have been in some more secretive plan that showed "the real costs" of getting the line up and running again. It does make me wonder if the thing that I think of are actually working their way through the various management boards with no public notice till they see it as a done deal.

Thank you for letting me take a peak into the window.

It's often called wanting to keep your job. Often, decisions of this type of scope are made at a fairly narrow part of the pyramid so leakages can be both contained and/or traced back to a manageable number of sources. If some guy/guyette on the shop floor posts something because he heard a rumour or caught a vibe, there is often enough speculation or simply wrong information that there is plausible deniability.

It could also be an acknowledgement of terms in an agreement of sale or purchase. In this case, maybe the government didn't really care by CN did. Dunno.

In government, there is the added risk of inadvertently embarrassing or causing grief to 'the Centre' (Cabinet/Premier's Office). If something happens on a day they didn't want it to happen, in a way they didn't want it to happen, before all talking points have gone through their multiple layers of editing or before the right person is available to kiss the right baby, it will circle the wagons, even to point of not doing something they fully intended to do, except now it's not in control. They are delicate creatures.