Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

For two more trains per day (n/b and s/b Northlander)?

Explain to me why they bought the Newmarket Sub, using the same argument that you made. While I am happy they did it, it still does not make sense why. Like you said, for 2 more trains a day, it is not going to conflict with existing freight. This has me think there is more to this than just that reason.

 

[Bordercollie]

Explain to me why they bought the Newmarket Sub, using the same argument that you made. While I am happy they did it, it still does not make sense why. Like you said, for 2 more trains a day, it is not going to conflict with existing freight. This has me think there is more to this than just that reason.

GO train service to cottage country during peak times? Huntsville would be a popular destination for that.

 

[reaperexpress]

For two more trains per day (n/b and s/b Northlander)?

The single-tracked CN mainline from Washago to Bloomington Station (Richmond Hill) is a major bottleneck in its current form, so each additional train does have a noticeable impact on the overall line capacity. In that 97km segment, there is currently only one siding that is long enough for CN's transcontinental freight trains, the 12,000 foot Brechin East siding. The rest are less than 7000 feet long, so they could be used to make a passenger train wait for a freight train, but they cannot be used to let a long freight train wait for a passenger train - it literally wouldn't fit.

It's 70 km from Brechin to Bloomington, so a long freight train occupies that segment of line for over an hour. With only 24 hours in a day, it doesn't take very many passenger trains before that becomes a problem.

Lengthening some of the sidings to 1200 feet (e.g. Zephyr), or even adding a segment of double-track (between Zephyr and Pefferlaw) may be necessary if we want to increase the Northlander service above one train per day while actually operating a somewhat punctual and fast service

 

[Bordercollie]

The single-tracked CN mainline from Washago to Bloomington Station (Richmond Hill) is a major bottleneck in its current form, so each additional train does have a noticeable impact on the overall line capacity. In that 97km segment, there is currently only one siding that is long enough for CN's transcontinental freight trains, the 12,000 foot Brechin East siding. The rest are less than 7000 feet long, so they could be used to make a passenger train wait for a freight train, but they cannot be used to let a long freight train wait for a passenger train - it literally wouldn't fit.
View attachment 722004

Lengthening some of the sidings (e.g. Zephyr), or even adding a second segment of double-track (between Zephyr and Pefferlaw) may be necessary if we want to increase the Northlander service above one train per day while actually operating a somewhat punctual and fast service

We only have three trainsets. I don't think it's possible to do more than 3 trips per day. Unless you short turn some trains at North Bay.

 

[micheal_can]

We only have three trainsets. I don't think it's possible to do more than 3 trips per day. Unless you short turn some trains at North Bay.

I highly doubt there is the need for more than 1 train a day each way. I welcome being proved wrong.

 

[Bordercollie]

I highly doubt there is the need for more than 1 train a day each way. I welcome being proved wrong.

Now if only there was the will to buy the London North line.

 

[lenaitch]

Explain to me why they bought the Newmarket Sub, using the same argument that you made. While I am happy they did it, it still does not make sense why. Like you said, for 2 more trains a day, it is not going to conflict with existing freight. This has me think there is more to this than just that reason.

You'd have to ask them but going by the presser, it seems they felt there was a business case for owning the track and have CN pay to use it. After the cost is earned back (I've heard 10 years) it's revenue. They also might have felt that there was an operational advantage to having Northlander operate on home territory as much as possible. They sure weren't going to buy the Bala sub. and I suspect double tracking 118 km would have been cost prohibitive. I don't know the used railway market but $1.5Mn/per km for the Newmarket sub. strikes me as a bit of a bargain.

Lengthening some of the sidings to 1200 feet (e.g. Zephyr), or even adding a segment of double-track (between Zephyr and Pefferlaw) may be necessary if we want to increase the Northlander service above one train per day while actually operating a somewhat punctual and fast service

It is mentioned on P. 75 of the Northlander business case. No clue where it stands.

A capacity study determined that rail corridor upgrades would enhance travel time and reliability of the Northeast Passenger Rail service. The study proposed a new siding north of Zephyr to facilitate train meets between Ontario Northland and CN trains. Preliminary cost estimates for this siding are included in the capital requirements of this business case, though future delivery will be determined though negotiations with CN.

 

[micheal_can]

You'd have to ask them but going by the presser, it seems they felt there was a business case for owning the track and have CN pay to use it. After the cost is earned back (I've heard 10 years) it's revenue. They also might have felt that there was an operational advantage to having Northlander operate on home territory as much as possible. They sure weren't going to buy the Bala sub. and I suspect double tracking 118 km would have been cost prohibitive. I don't know the used railway market but $1.5Mn/per km for the Newmarket sub. strikes me as a bit of a bargain.

The Bala sub is off the table.

Even with what you said, I still don't see enough of a case for it. However, I am not upset at the purchase.

Now if only there was the will to buy the London North line.

London North line?

 

[lenaitch]

For those of you who worry about such things or think the ONR should be responsible for all the 'last mile' concerns.

Timmins Transit to Connect with Northlander

 

[crs1026]

It would be interesting to know where the Newmarket Sub sits in life cycle - how much rail will need replacement over the next 15-20 years, how much additional tie replacement and surfacing will be needed to run pax faster than the current freight only service demands.

I can well imagine that CN is simply not interested in maintaining to a higher track standard to expedite passenger at any price - it's a distraction to their core business, and ONR may be able to achieve same quality for less than CN may have quoted. There may well be an attractive break-even point for ONR.

All the same, with the purchase price being as high as it is, that implies a pretty expensive rail line maintenance budget to obtain an overall cost benefit by buying the line.

Compare that to the 10 year cost of running a free bus service that only promises to operate 330 days a year and stands down in the worst weather.

- Paul

PS I can't help but wonder what CN would ask for the much shorter Kitchener-Stratfor-London line. Same freight traffic potential, same need for passenger improvements, much greater ridership and revenue potential, same potential to avoid highway investment.

 

[micheal_can]

For those of you who worry about such things or think the ONR should be responsible for all the 'last mile' concerns.

Timmins Transit to Connect with Northlander

I saw that. My hope is that other transit agencies along the route do the same.

 

[dowlingm]

It would be interesting to know where the Newmarket Sub sits in life cycle - how much rail will need replacement over the next 15-20 years, how much additional tie replacement and surfacing will be needed to run pax faster than the current freight only service demands.

I can well imagine that CN is simply not interested in maintaining to a higher track standard to expedite passenger at any price - it's a distraction to their core business, and ONR may be able to achieve same quality for less than CN may have quoted. There may well be an attractive break-even point for ONR.

All the same, with the purchase price being as high as it is, that implies a pretty expensive rail line maintenance budget to obtain an overall cost benefit by buying the line.

Compare that to the 10 year cost of running a free bus service that only promises to operate 330 days a year and stands down in the worst weather.

- Paul

PS I can't help but wonder what CN would ask for the much shorter Kitchener-Stratfor-London line. Same freight traffic potential, same need for passenger improvements, much greater ridership and revenue potential, same potential to avoid highway investment.

At least with the Newmarket you only have to worry about relationships with CN since the OVR doesn’t seem to have a main track connection with it. With Kitchener London you would have at least GEXR and VIA underfoot too, plus a CP diamond in London…

 

[dowlingm]

Some disquiet in Gravenhurst over the choice to build a shelter rather than use the heritage station?

ONTARIO NORTHLAND’S CEO BEING HAULED BEFORE GRAVENHURST COUNCIL TUESDAY TO EXPLAIN WHY TOWN’S TRAIN STATION WON’T BE NEXT STOP FOR THE ‘SUMMER’S’ RETURN OF PASSENGER RAIL SERVICE – MuskokaTODAY.com

muskokatoday.com

 

[lenaitch]

It would be interesting to know where the Newmarket Sub sits in life cycle - how much rail will need replacement over the next 15-20 years, how much additional tie replacement and surfacing will be needed to run pax faster than the current freight only service demands.

I can well imagine that CN is simply not interested in maintaining to a higher track standard to expedite passenger at any price - it's a distraction to their core business, and ONR may be able to achieve same quality for less than CN may have quoted. There may well be an attractive break-even point for ONR.

All the same, with the purchase price being as high as it is, that implies a pretty expensive rail line maintenance budget to obtain an overall cost benefit by buying the line.

Compare that to the 10 year cost of running a free bus service that only promises to operate 330 days a year and stands down in the worst weather.

- Paul

PS I can't help but wonder what CN would ask for the much shorter Kitchener-Stratfor-London line. Same freight traffic potential, same need for passenger improvements, much greater ridership and revenue potential, same potential to avoid highway investment.

We don't who called whom but it might be that CN looked at their long range projections and didn't see much growth potential in the subdivision. Neither of the Class 1s have been much into branchline operations for a while and I have to believe traffic has been much reduced since the days of Sherman and Adam mines.

Canada Nickel in Timmins is projected to be the largest or second largest nickel camp in the world and is planning to start development later this year but I don't what that would mean for traffic on the sub.

 

[micheal_can]

Canada Nickel in Timmins is projected to be the largest or second largest nickel camp in the world and is planning to start development later this year but I don't what that would mean for traffic on the sub.

Any idea whether they will refine it locally or elsewhere?
Maybe it is done in Sudbury.