GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[nfitz]

I didnt know there was work for a 5th track... but im not sure what the point is.

It was discussed and shown in the pre-Ontario Line Metrolinx presentation to the City, along with the two additional tunnels. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ep/bgrd/backgroundfile-112265.pdf

That's why they initially extended the tunnel north from the old exit in 2017 - but then everything stopped and then there was the sudden Ontario Line plans, and the tunnel didn't open until 2022. They regraded the 5th track area back in 2017 as well.

January 2018 Metrolinx presentation

September 2017

 

[WB62]

I didnt know there was work for a 5th track... but im not sure what the point is. Rest of the corridor is still 3 track. I think 4 tracks on the LSW corridor is more than enough and 5+ seems infeasable in places down the corridor.

A 5th (and I’m pretty sure 6th) track was planned as recently as the newest Park Lawn GO drawings to go from just past Mimico to somewhere in the east (Bathurst? Strachan? Dufferin? Someone here will know).
Their purpose would have been to separate yard traffic from in service trains.

 

[afransen]

I wonder if high C rated batteries can actually make a BEMU able to apply more power than can be applied purely by catenary. Am somewhat inspired by a battery induction cooktop that uses a 3 kwh cheap lithium iron phosphate battery to apply a peak power of 10kw (which is a lot) for boiling water very quickly. This stove then can run on a regular 20 amp circuit that trickle charges the battery (much less than a regular electric stove with much higher performance). A battery need not be very big to provide a lot of power for peak acceleration requirements. And battery technology is only improving... Maybe it will make sense for batteries to help trains accelerate with upwards of 25 MW of power that can be supplied by 25kv AC.

 

[dowlingm]

I wonder if high C rated batteries can actually make a BEMU able to apply more power than can be applied purely by catenary. Am somewhat inspired by a battery induction cooktop that uses a 3 kwh cheap lithium iron phosphate battery to apply a peak power of 10kw (which is a lot) for boiling water very quickly. This stove then can run on a regular 20 amp circuit that trickle charges the battery (much less than a regular electric stove with much higher performance). A battery need not be very big to provide a lot of power for peak acceleration requirements. And battery technology is only improving... Maybe it will make sense for batteries to help trains accelerate with upwards of 25 MW of power that can be supplied by 25kv AC.

25kV locomotives can supply 7000hp+. Unless the battery is in a trailing coach with driven axles, surely wheel adhesion would be a problem sooner than motors needing more juice?

 

[afransen]

25kV locomotives can supply 7000hp+. Unless the battery is in a trailing coach with driven axles, surely wheel adhesion would be a problem sooner than motors needing more juice?

In an EMU, aren't there motors in most/all of the cars?

 

[urbancog]

On the Bi-level question, I personally think the most rational thing is to phase them out of normal service and into specialized roles like express trains where accel does not matter as much, pax capacity is king, and frequency can actually be a problem (not enough train capacity).

I think you'll eventually get your wish. The "End State Service" proposed in Board Mtg State of the Network presentation retains the existing fleet & diesel traction for services on the KI line to Malton, Bramalea and beyond but has "electric....service with new trains" on all the other lines (including UP Express).
The express services on the KI line would seem to be a good fit for diesel traction and long consists where acceleration isn't so critical, and the 15-min stopping service to Bramalea may use a short consist to achieve better acceleration but will be sharing tracks with the diesel expresses.

 

[smallspy]

In an EMU, aren't there motors in most/all of the cars?

Not necessarily. It depends on what is trying to be achieved in the design.

A lot of the second-generation British EMUs - generally in 3 and 4 car configurations - only had one car with traction motors on it. Even the more modern high-speed EMUs have half or fewer of their total axles powered.

Hell, the most modern RER EMUs only have traction motors in the first and last 2 cars (4 cars total) of a 7-car trainset. And those are designed to get out of their own way in a hurry.

Dan

 

[drum118]

A 5th (and I’m pretty sure 6th) track was planned as recently as the newest Park Lawn GO drawings to go from just past Mimico to somewhere in the east (Bathurst? Strachan? Dufferin? Someone here will know).
Their purpose would have been to separate yard traffic from in service trains.

As I recall, the 5th track was to be a lead to/from the yards with a possiblity of being a mainline. There was talk about a 6th track that would have to be shoes horn in the area but with the OL in play now I expect its DOA. Even getting a 5th for Exhibition area maybe a problem now with a switch west of the station for it.

Park Lawn station only shows 4 tracks now with the bridge been widen for the station and a 5th track.

 

[ssiguy2]

This whole Battery debate is dumb, electrify the lakeshore corridor Aldershot to Oshawa while adding infill stations and TOD. Bring it thru Union via the new southern platforms/concourse. Then it's just a matter of cascading the existing loco hauled fleet unto the other lines, for increased frequencies and buying a new EMU fleet for the upgraded Lakeshore line. Once completed the decision can be made of what's to be done with the other lines.

The debate is not dumb but rather why we have to have it in the first place is. Of course, with dumb, you can also throw in shocking incompetence by Metrolinx. After a decade of ML promising electrification by 2025, all they do, in 2025, was announce they aren't going to do it. In a decade, the only thing electric about GO is the lightbulbs.

It's due to this that we are talking about EDMUs and BEMUs in the first place. ML has been lying thru their teeth for the last decade about electrification and there is absolutely no reason to think they aren't lying now about their new date for a shortened area by 2032. ML announced this last June.............anybody see any new poles or substations go up or even ordering of the trains yet?

ML has shown they have absolutely no ability {or even intention} of electrifying GO} so these 2 technologies are the best, and basically only, options.

 

[nfitz]

ML announced this last June.............anybody see any new poles or substations go up or even ordering of the trains yet?

Aren't the foundations of the poles at least a start?

 

[drum118]

Aren't the foundations of the poles at least a start?

There are foundation in place in various area in small areas with the Whitby yard having the most. In various places doesn't help getting the line in place considering the UPX line was to be done by 2019 and here we are in 2026 still talking about the lines still to be built. Haven't seen any foundations built in years,

If the UPX is to be the first, ML needs to start a tender for the new fleet to replace the DMU's that will take 3-5 years before they are in service.

 

[nfitz]

Haven't seen any foundations built in years,

I thought someone had observed this along the Ontario Line joint corridor. Perhaps I misinterpreted and it's for the subway.

 

[PShells]

There’s foundations for OCS in the LSE corridor that has been rebuilt between the USRC and Gerrard Square. Anecdotally, I would peg it somewhere between 20-40 foundations that have been or will soon be poured. It’s simply concrete with a fixture to bolt a pole too with conduit laid below the surface, which is probably still empty waiting for electrical lines to be pulled.

The tracks in this corridor must be “somewhat close” or already in their final alignment for this to take sense. The rest of the line still has a lot of station renovations, track shifts and bridges to rebuild before it makes sense to add more pre emptive OCS infrastructure.

 

[crs1026]

There are indeed footings being installed along the LSE corridor in the new Ontario Line project. And there were footings included when the Davenport flyover was built.

That's not the most critical step forward, nor does it indicate that electrification is approaching. It's just prudent futureproofing on a fairly small scale with no timeframe implied.

The bigger question is, how are the substation locations coming along. The last I heard, there was initial site prep happening, but site explorations that imply early design work only . Similarly I haven't seen any indication that ML has started procurement on switchgear or on OCS components. For that matter, there has been no systemmatic work to install grounding, modify signalling, or deal with key clearance issues.

Those new footings are a small step only.

- Paul

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

I think you'll eventually get your wish. The "End State Service" proposed in Board Mtg State of the Network presentation retains the existing fleet & diesel traction for services on the KI line to Malton, Bramalea and beyond but has "electric....service with new trains" on all the other lines (including UP Express).
The express services on the KI line would seem to be a good fit for diesel traction and long consists where acceleration isn't so critical, and the 15-min stopping service to Bramalea may use a short consist to achieve better acceleration but will be sharing tracks with the diesel expresses.
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What's the point of doing every 60 minutes to Stouffville and every 2 hours to Old Elm when they are only 2.5 km apart? If Metrolinx were to extend the Stouffville line to Uxbridge, then I could see the need for a separate 2 hour service category.