Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Burnt creek]

Line 6 is not only slower than the 36 bus, it is also slower than the 41 + 996 TTC bus. It has also been calculated to be slower than taking Line 1 to Highway 407 station and taking the new 40M GO bus starting January 3, 2026. The upper range of the trip times on Line 6 (10.3 km) are exceeding Line 1 Vaughan to Finch (38.4 km) times, which is ridiculous.

We raced TTC's Line 6 on a bus and it was so slow we had time to stop for a snack

Toronto's newest transit line debuted on Dec. 7 to brutally bad reviews, and it seems that even a few weeks into service, the TTC has not ironed out …

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To whom it may concern: only in North America are these called LRVs and LRT. In Europe this would be considered a street-running tram, which is directly analogous to a Toronto streetcar. Fighting over semantics just shows you've never set foot outside the continent. Line 6 is in every way a streetcar. LRTs even in the United States often have stronger grade-separation for most, if not all of its routing. Conversely, LRTs in Asia are virtually all light metros. See Kelana Jaya line in Malaysia and my metro vs. tram post below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelana_Jaya_line

And pillaging funds for the Sheppard Subway extension would have been the right thing to do. I will die on this hill that Finch West did not deserve an LRT before transit improvements were made along other denser, more deserving corridors. A competent transit plan would have prioritized the many over the few. And while trying to help the few over the many, Line 6 ends up doing neither.

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. but that is still too slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure horribly slow commutes instead of horrendously slow commutes. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (at half throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

 

[Bordercollie]

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. so that is still to slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure ridiculously slow commutes that are horrible instead of horrendous. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (without full throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

 

[JasonParis]

Totally. I’ve seen this used as the standard in Europe. First, it shortens dwell times when no one is boarding or alighting. Second, it keeps the vehicle’s climate far better controlled.

 

[Bordercollie]

Totally. I’ve seen this used as the standard in Europe. First, it shortens dwell times when no one is boarding or alighting. Second, it keeps the vehicle’s climate far better controlled.

In winter and summer.

 

[JSF-1]

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

The answer to that question is the same answer as to why we don't use the door buttons on the streetcars, that is the average person would forget to breath if it wasn't done automatically. I was actually reading earlier that the ICTS Mk.I trains in Vancouver originally had door-open buttons but they were removed due to passenger confusion and door jamming so there is unfortunately real world precedence for this. When presented with a glowing green button, for some reason over here in North America the average riders brain just malfunctions instead of doing what I thought would be the instinctual thing and push it. This is probably why we also had to tape big "PUSH" stickers to the yellow bars on the rear doors of buses, so maybe we should add a sticker below the button that says "PUSH TO OPEN WHEN LIT"

 

[Steve X]

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

TTC doesn't want to insult "dumb" riders when they just stand there waiting for the doors to open. Shouting through the speaker doesn't help cause either they never seen a button, their IQ is too low or they simply don't understand English. They had the whole decade top educate everyone on the downtown streetcar system but chose to simply let everyone inside freeze instead. Of course the TTC can't run a educational campaign properly either.

 

[APTA-2048]

Yet somehow, annoyingly, everyone on the legacy system seems to know how to press the button when the doors are closing and the streetcar is supposed be driving away. That and the slow doors are really annoying when you end up missing a light.

 

[Bojaxs]

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. but that is still too slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure ridiculously slow commutes that are horrible instead of horrendous. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (at half throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

After implementing TPS, they'll seriously have to consider knocking down some of the stations. There's too many stops on Line 6. Got to allow the trams to pick up some speed between stations.

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

Apparently it's an ongoing issue with the Alstom Citadis Spirits. Go back a few pages and I asked the same question. There's an issue where the doors are prone to malfunction if they're opened and closed too many times within a short time span. So they just opt to leave them open at every station.

The answer to that question is the same answer as to why we don't use the door buttons on the streetcars, that is the average person would forget to breath if it wasn't done automatically. I was actually reading earlier that the ICTS Mk.I trains in Vancouver originally had door-open buttons but they were removed due to passenger confusion and door jamming. When presented with a glowing green button for some reason, over here in North America the average riders brain just malfunctions instead of doing what I thought would be the instinctual thing and push it. This is probably why we also had to tape big "PUSH" stickers to the yellow bars on the rear doors of buses

The C-trains in Calgary still utilise the door buttons. I remember the first time I rode a C-train in Calgary a couple years ago. When the train pulled up to the platform ,I positioned myself in front of the door and stood there waiting for it to open for me. After about 5 seconds, another rider behind me moved up next to me and pressed the door button to open the door. I guess at that point I showed how "Toronto" I was. I expect doors to just open for me.

Thankfully it was a freezing cold winter day. I had my face all covered up so the other folks couldn't see the dumbfounded look on my face as I stood there on the platform assessing what I just witnessed.

 

[drum118]

After implementing TPS, they'll seriously have to consider knocking down some of the stations. There's too many stops on Line 6. Got to allow the trams to pick up some speed between stations.


Apparently it's an ongoing issue with the Alstom Citadis Spirits. Go back a few pages and I asked the same question. There's an issue where the doors are prone to malfunction if they're opened and closed too many times within a short time span. So they just opt to leave them open at every station.



The C-trains in Calgary still utilise the door buttons. I remember the first time I rode a C-train in Calgary a couple years ago. When the train pulled up to the platform ,I positioned myself in front of the door and stood there waiting for it to open for me. After about 5 seconds, another rider behind me moved up next to me and pressed the door button to open the door. I guess at that point I showed how "Toronto" I was. I expect doors to just open for me.

Thankfully it was a freezing cold winter day. I had my face all covered up so the other folks couldn't see the dumbfounded look on my face as I stood there on the platform assessing what I just witnessed.

All systems I have ridden in NA and Europe, I must press the button to get on/off while TTC does for it riders. There are time a rider will push the button either on the LRV or wanting on after the door has close to get on or off. Even ION requires you to push the button along with Buffalo and Detroit doing the same thing that only a few hours from us.

 

[not_taylor]

Just wanted to share my experience from riding Line 6 east at 17:45 on Saturday December 20. I rode the full eastbound service and the service was significantly improved versus opening day.

I observed the driver operating the vehicle more comfortably than before, with the vehicle reaching the full speed limit of 50-60 between intersections. Additionally, the driver slowed to just 30-35 at intersections and sped up after the front of the vehicle passed the halfway point of the intersection (technically violating the 25 km/h policy). The vehicle operated ahead of schedule for most of the route and observations show the schedule is extremely padded off-peak.

I recorded the stop arrival and departure times versus the scheduled times as well as light dwells and schedule padding holds.

Stop Name	Arrive	Depart	Scheduled	Light dwell	Schedule dwell
Humber College		17:45​	17:45​
Westmore	17:48​	17:48​	17:48​
Martin Grove	17:49​	17:49​	17:52​
Albion	17:52​	17:52​	17:55​	0:02​
Stevenson	17:52​	17:53​	17:56​
Mount Olive	17:55​	17:59​	17:58​	0:01​	0:04​
Rowntree Mills	18:01​	18:02​	18:03​
Pearldale	18:03​	18:03​	18:05​
Duncanwoods	18:04​	18:05​	18:07​
Milvan Rumike	18:07​	18:07​	18:09​	0:02​
Emery	18:10​	18:10​	18:12​	0:01​
Signet Arrow	18:12​	18:13​	18:14​	0:02​
Norfinch Oakdale	18:15​	18:15​	18:18​
Jane and Finch	18:18​	18:18​	18:22​	0:02​
Driftwood	18:19​	18:19​	18:23​
Tobermory	18:20​	18:21​	18:25​
Sentinel	18:23​	18:23​	18:28​	0:01​
Finch West	18:26​		18:31​
Total runtime	0:41​
Total light dwell	0:11​
Total schedule dwell	0:04​
Actual runtime	0:26​

Total end-to-end running time was about 40 mins 30 seconds, even with a 4 min hold from transit control at Mount Olive station and 11 mins worth of red lights.

This trip has improved my confidence in the performance of Line 6 and I think the design is actually fine. You could shave about 11 mins and 1 min off the running time if the city is able to revise the signal programming to permit aggressive TSP and from raised speed limits respectively, plus the 4 mins of schedule dwell giving a possible off-peak running time of 25 mins. I'd say during peak periods you could add 5 mins to that for heavier customer loading and traffic patterns.

This would raise the average speed of Line 6 to 25 km/h during off-peak and 21km/h during peak, which is respectable for light rail. More importantly, it would improve the speed of the LRT to be faster than the bus during almost all periods (except for late evenings).

Unfortunately some aspects of the speed cannot be improved such as during the curves between Humber College and Westmore, between Albion and Mount Olive, and between Sentinel and Finch West. The Alstom Citadis Spirit vehicles seem to not be able to handle curves of any sort and make terrible noises even when going at reduced speeds around them. Ironically, the Flexity Outlooks seem to handle curves in the track with much better comfort and performance.

 

[Voltz]

Rob Ford didn't want LRT interfering with traffic.
Transit enthusiast from a decade ago thought it was more important to have LRT interfere with traffic than for LRT run free from interference from traffic.
If someone would have said - hey Rob, how about building elevated for same price as on-street, he may have supported it.
No doubt, Ford didn't know what to do but he knew what was planned - what we have now - was not going to work and may as well punt the ball by a decade or two until something better is proposed.
(I suspect in Fords mind he thought subway may be warranted, by demand and not just politically, by that time).
I think Ford had the best proposal for Finch of anyone (if we call the talk of subway just rhetoric).

Ford thought that the Scarborough LRT was going to rip up roads and block traffic, no he didn’t know anything.

 

[Bordercollie]

After implementing TPS, they'll seriously have to consider knocking down some of the stations. There's too many stops on Line 6. Got to allow the trams to pick up some speed between stations.


Apparently it's an ongoing issue with the Alstom Citadis Spirits. Go back a few pages and I asked the same question. There's an issue where the doors are prone to malfunction if they're opened and closed too many times within a short time span. So they just opt to leave them open at every station.



The C-trains in Calgary still utilise the door buttons. I remember the first time I rode a C-train in Calgary a couple years ago. When the train pulled up to the platform ,I positioned myself in front of the door and stood there waiting for it to open for me. After about 5 seconds, another rider behind me moved up next to me and pressed the door button to open the door. I guess at that point I showed how "Toronto" I was. I expect doors to just open for me.

Thankfully it was a freezing cold winter day. I had my face all covered up so the other folks couldn't see the dumbfounded look on my face as I stood there on the platform assessing what I just witnessed.

The distance between the stations is not the issue. If the downtown streetcars can go 50-55 kmph with even shorter stops there is no reason why the Finch LRT cannot.

Also if they made an announcement at each stop press the green button for the door to open. Then that's enough.

Eventually people will figure it out. I tried to ride it from end to end but it was too painful, and cold. Even though today wasn't even that cold. The only other time I felt cold on the street car is with the CLRV's heater was broken and it was -25C outside.

Opening all doors for 3 minutes to let 3 people get off makes no sense. And then trecking along at 30-35kmph also makes no sense. As soon as it hits 50 the operator coasts to the next station and slowly comes to a stop at the red light and then slowly crosses the intersection to the station.

That's 3 minutes at the traffic light, 45-60 to cross the intersection and come back a stop and then 3 minutes at the stop.

It makes no sense

 

[PL1]

I agree that people should have to use the buttons to open the doors on line 6, but also on the legacy streetcars. And I'd like to see some sort of a lock-out after some time (20s-30s?) after which pressing the outside button will no longer open the door.

 

[Bordercollie]

I agree that people should have to use the buttons to open the doors on line 6, but also on the legacy streetcars. And I'd like to see some sort of a lock-out after some time (20s-30s?) after which pressing the outside button will no longer open the door.

Yup. If you miss your chance get off at the new stop. The only one that shouldn't have a lock out is the handicap one.

 

[ARG1]

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

Its worth pointing out that these are the same trains that are used in Ottawa - the city which had a problem for a while with doors getting jammed whenever someone tried to hold them open (and as a resulted permanently halted rolling out door open buttons). I wouldn't be surprised if part of that bled over here.