Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

My guess is cost. The town (who owns the building) would rather rent the space to a tenant who will pay more than what ONR would like to pay. While the upfront cost of the shelter might be higher, the operating cost is likely much lower.

I guess that my assumption is that the installation of the equipment inside the existing station and the rental for it would take a long time before it ever gets to the initial cost of that shelter.

 

[lenaitch]

Those public buildings already have indoor waiting areas, washrooms and staff, so the net cost of also asking the staff to sell train/bus tickets and give train/bus information is minimal.

With the the exception of the few ONR-owned stations that will be used, the third-party owned former stations might have indoor areas that used to be waiting areas but are now either vacant or repurposed. Some buildings are publicly-owned, some, like Huntsville, are private. Gravenhurst is obviously habitable; I'm not sure all are. Regardless, none of the tenants are public entities that I am aware of.

As far as I am aware, ticket sales are online/kiosk or on board with the exception of the staffed stations and PBX flag stops. The ONR would have to negotiate with each individual tenant, vet their employees then train them on their systems. They got away from ticket agents in small towns for this reason. This would also be compounded by the scheduled stop times. Some are within normal business hours; others are not.

Instead of building a shelter, why not have it unattended, but have the waiting area within part of that station that already is there?

Cost and liability. ONR would have to rent the space, isolate it from other areas of the building, heat it, illuminate it, monitor it, insure it, then probably wait until somebody calls it home and burns it down (how the wooden kiosk at Washago hasn't burned down yet is beyond me). There is also a matter of passenger safety. True that they have to power, monitor and insure the kiosks but they don't strike me as very flammable and aren't attached to a century old structure.

 

[reaperexpress]

With the the exception of the few ONR-owned stations that will be used, the third-party owned former stations might have indoor areas that used to be waiting areas but are now either vacant or repurposed. Some buildings are publicly-owned, some, like Huntsville, are private. Gravenhurst is obviously habitable; I'm not sure all are. Regardless, none of the tenants are public entities that I am aware of.

The Temagami Chamber of Commerce is not a public entity but they clearly have an interest in improving the visitor experience to Temagami. Hence why they operate the former station building as a Visitor Centre in the first place. There may be other businesses who occupy former train station buildings and are also interested in improved connection with the railway.

As far as I am aware, ticket sales are online/kiosk or on board with the exception of the staffed stations and PBX flag stops. The ONR would have to negotiate with each individual tenant, vet their employees then train them on their systems. They got away from ticket agents in small towns for this reason. This would also be compounded by the scheduled stop times. Some are within normal business hours; others are not.

No, if you actually look at the Ontario Northland website you'll see that the vast majority of their ticket agents are third-party and they have not gone away from ticket agents in small towns. You can buy Ontario Northland tickets at dozens of convenience stores, cafés, hotels, general stores, gas stations, etc. Clearly negotiating with tenants is not an issue and there are a wide variety of businesses who are interested in acting as Ontario Northland service points.

 

[lenaitch]

The Temagami Chamber of Commerce is not a public entity but they clearly have an interest in improving the visitor experience to Temagami. Hence why they operate the former station building as a Visitor Centre in the first place. There may be other businesses who occupy former train station buildings and are also interested in improved connection with the railway.

No, if you actually look at the Ontario Northland website you'll see that the vast majority of their ticket agents are third-party and they have not gone away from ticket agents in small towns. You can buy Ontario Northland tickets at dozens of convenience stores, cafés, hotels, general stores, gas stations, etc. Clearly negotiating with tenants is not an issue and there are a wide variety of businesses who are interested in acting as Ontario Northland service points.
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Thanks for the agency info. I was under the impression they were moving away from that model for ticketing (not including parcel).

As for station usage, I suppose if some local group wanted to offer their space out of civic mindedness, I doubt the ONR would say no, but they have indicated no intention of paying for it.

If some business, that is otherwise open anyway, is willing to host waiting passengers, good for them, but much revolves around station times. In the case of Temagami, the train times are proposed to be 0110 and 0415; bus times are 1407 and 1730. The CoC is the local agent but they are shown as only open 0900 to 1530 Tue to Thur.

 

[micheal_can]

Thanks for the agency info. I was under the impression they were moving away from that model for ticketing (not including parcel).

As for station usage, I suppose if some local group wanted to offer their space out of civic mindedness, I doubt the ONR would say no, but they have indicated no intention of paying for it.

If some business, that is otherwise open anyway, is willing to host waiting passengers, good for them, but much revolves around station times. In the case of Temagami, the train times are proposed to be 0110 and 0415; bus times are 1407 and 1730. The CoC is the local agent but they are shown as only open 0900 to 1530 Tue to Thur.

Sounds like what is needed is the operators of the 'stuff' in the Gravenhurst station to step up if this is to go ahead.


On another note, once it is up and running, how long till we know whether it is a success? Obviously, the first few weeks/months, the train will be full of foamers and railfans, but eventually, the majority will be locals using it as locals would. So, how long till it gets down to that situation?

 

[crs1026]

In a world of contactless payment and point of sale machines, I'm wondering why a ticket agent network continues to exist. It must cost Ontario Northland something just to connect all those vendors and ensure trained agents and collect revenue.

One used to be able to buy TTC tokens and Metropasses at convenience stores across Toronto. Not so much lately.

- Paul

 

[NorthernTracks]

With the the exception of the few ONR-owned stations that will be used, the third-party owned former stations might have indoor areas that used to be waiting areas but are now either vacant or repurposed. Some buildings are publicly-owned, some, like Huntsville, are private. Gravenhurst is obviously habitable; I'm not sure all are. Regardless, none of the tenants are public entities that I am aware of.

As far as I am aware, ticket sales are online/kiosk or on board with the exception of the staffed stations and PBX flag stops. The ONR would have to negotiate with each individual tenant, vet their employees then train them on their systems. They got away from ticket agents in small towns for this reason. This would also be compounded by the scheduled stop times. Some are within normal business hours; others are not.


Cost and liability. ONR would have to rent the space, isolate it from other areas of the building, heat it, illuminate it, monitor it, insure it, then probably wait until somebody calls it home and burns it down (how the wooden kiosk at Washago hasn't burned down yet is beyond me). There is also a matter of passenger safety. True that they have to power, monitor and insure the kiosks but they don't strike me as very flammable and aren't attached to a century old structure.

Speaking of Washago, will the existing passenger facility at Washago be replaced with the one proposed by Ontario Northland? Will passengers boarding or transfering between the Northlander and the Canadian (or vice versa) have access to this new shelter?

 

[lenaitch]

Sounds like what is needed is the operators of the 'stuff' in the Gravenhurst station to step up if this is to go ahead.

The only people calling for this is an advocacy group and it sounds like they don't have a lot of traction. The tenants (in the case of Gravenhurst, a vet clinic and taxi company) have no obligation to accommodate waiting rail passengers and, quite frankly, I don't blame them.

In a world of contactless payment and point of sale machines, I'm wondering why a ticket agent network continues to exist. It must cost Ontario Northland something just to connect all those vendors and ensure trained agents and collect revenue.

One used to be able to buy TTC tokens and Metropasses at convenience stores across Toronto. Not so much lately.

- Paul

It was my understanding that, for bus anyway, sales were being concentrated to online. They might find they need local agents to manage parcel service.

Speaking of Washago, will the existing passenger facility at Washago be replaced with the one proposed by Ontario Northland? Will passengers boarding or transfering between the Northlander and the Canadian (or vice versa) have access to this new shelter?

ONR's media releases includes Washago in the shelter contract. Without checking VIA's timing, I don't know if there will be any synergy between the two services. Given VIA's on-time performance on their trans-continental route, I'm not sure I would rely on it. You could be in the shelter for a long time.

I don't know for certain, but unless they have figured out some way to lock a shelter except around train time, I suspect they will open all the time. They may have some occupancy sensing for HVAC and lights.

 

[Garuda]

In a world of contactless payment and point of sale machines, I'm wondering why a ticket agent network continues to exist. It must cost Ontario Northland something just to connect all those vendors and ensure trained agents and collect revenue.

One used to be able to buy TTC tokens and Metropasses at convenience stores across Toronto. Not so much lately.

- Paul

Well one difference is that Ontario Northland has variable pricing similar to VIA.

I do think there should be a contactless payment for last minute boardings.

I also hope that there’s a fare agreement with the Northlander to accept Presto fares from Gormley south bound. Sure it’s standing room only but the trains will arrive after the last morning GO train.

 

[micheal_can]

In a world of contactless payment and point of sale machines, I'm wondering why a ticket agent network continues to exist. It must cost Ontario Northland something just to connect all those vendors and ensure trained agents and collect revenue.

One used to be able to buy TTC tokens and Metropasses at convenience stores across Toronto. Not so much lately.

- Paul

Well one difference is that Ontario Northland has variable pricing similar to VIA.

I do think there should be a contactless payment for last minute boardings.

I also hope that there’s a fare agreement with the Northlander to accept Presto fares from Gormley south bound. Sure it’s standing room only but the trains will arrive after the last morning GO train.

Book online, or tap at the kiosk. Maybe this can be the start of rolling out Presto on all transit systems in the province.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't know how they plan to handle Gormley and Langstaff, but I'm not sure there would a business case for every municipal transit agency to use Presto. Most are stand-alone; meaning they don't connect to other transit agencies, and many are quite small. There are 'pay to play' charges along with equipment costs and I'm not sure many would see the benefit. What would be the advantage of, say, Sudbury or Thunder Bay transit migrating to Presto?

 

[dowlingm]

I also hope that there’s a fare agreement with the Northlander to accept Presto fares from Gormley south bound. Sure it’s standing room only but the trains will arrive after the last morning GO train.

That would presumably require ONR train staff to be trained in Presto and have the requisite checking equipment. Then again overloading a provinicially owned 3 coach trainset with commuter demands has already had a precedent with UPX, so maybe they can install UPX Presto terminals at those stations?

 

[reaperexpress]

That would presumably require ONR train staff to be trained in Presto and have the requisite checking equipment. Then again overloading a provinicially owned 3 coach trainset with commuter demands has already had a precedent with UPX, so maybe they can install UPX Presto terminals at those stations?

Gormley, Langstaff, and Union already have Presto readers. All that's required is to give the ONR conductor a handheld Presto scanner.

Presto is not suitable for trips north of Gormley anyway because it depends on a minimum balance to minimize the chance of a customer tapping in with insufficient balance to make it to their destination. For ONR the minimum would have to be something like $50 which is a bit silly.

I doubt permitting GO customers south of Gormley would overload the train. Maybe a handful standees at most. The Richmond Hill line is the least busy line, it will only stop at two of the stations, many ONR customers will be disembarking at Langstaff, and the trains are arriving/departing well outside of peak commuting periods.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't know how they plan to handle Gormley and Langstaff, but I'm not sure there would a business case for every municipal transit agency to use Presto. Most are stand-alone; meaning they don't connect to other transit agencies, and many are quite small. There are 'pay to play' charges along with equipment costs and I'm not sure many would see the benefit. What would be the advantage of, say, Sudbury or Thunder Bay transit migrating to Presto?

The advantage of a provincial contactless transit card would mean that if the desire to bring one in for those places, there is not the upfront costs to design the system. The equipment already exists.The training already exists. So, there is a minimal cost to implementation.

 

[micheal_can]

Gormley, Langstaff, and Union already have Presto readers. All that's required is to give the ONR conductor a handheld Presto scanner.

Presto is not suitable for trips north of Gormley anyway because it depends on a minimum balance to minimize the chance of a customer tapping in with insufficient balance to make it to their destination. For ONR the minimum would have to be something like $50 which is a bit silly.

I am not understanding how silly it is,unless you mean that all cardholders, not just the ones tapping it would be silly?
On the train there could also be card loaders on it.

I doubt permitting GO customers south of Gormley would overload the train. Maybe a handful standees at most. The Richmond Hill line is the least busy line, it will only stop at two of the stations, many ONR customers will be disembarking at Langstaff, and the trains are arriving/departing well outside of peak commuting periods.

The plan is to get in around 11am and leave around 7pm. Call me crazy, but that does not sound very useful for commuters.