Transit City Plan

[smuncky]

I could swear I have seen this exact conversation before.

i think the mods cleaned up the other threads a bit and moved certain posts to the appropriate threads.

 

[Voltz]

What do you mean arbitrary grab bag of projects? Bloor Yonge station absolutely needs to be expanded before the headway's can be dropped enough in order to handle the eventual increased load from the extension. Dropping the headway's also involves buying more cars than are currently on order, other stations south of bloor also need more entrances and exits.

They can't just approve the extension without considering its effects on the rest of the network for the sake of appearing to cooperate with york region.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I think just about everyone here, and indeed most Torontonians, agrees that a DRL of sorts is necessary and should have been built a long time ago. That doesn't somehow translate into a beggar-thy-neighbor approach to transit planning. In my mind, the Richmond Hill extension is clearly more beneficial to Toronto than the coming LRT fest in Malvern and the inscrutable Jane Line (where does it go? who does it carry?).

Are you suggesting that those predominately White and Asian folks of "the Richmond Hill extension is clearly more beneficial to Toronto than the coming LRT fest in Malvern and the inscrutable Jane Line" where there are a lot more minority of darker skin colour? "(where does it go? who does it carry?)."

Are you a racist?

Last time I checked,... those folks in Malvern and along "the inscrutable Jane Line" pay municipal property taxes that goes towards the TTC. Richmond Hill does not pay any property tax that goes to the TTC!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

$2.4 billion 6.8 km 6 station Yonge subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre ($352.9 million/km)
$2.8 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina Subway Extension from Downsview to Vaughan Corporate Centre ($325.6 million/km)
http://www.thestar.com/article/538111

Note: The entire Yonge Subway Extension is UNDERGROUND. Most of the Spadina Subway Extension is underground with the exception of a bridge over Hwy 407,.. BTW, that part north of Steeles to Hwy 7 will cost $1 Billion.

I'm wondering where you get your $70 million per Km for LRT line? Oh, that's right you're only looking at the most expensive line,... the $2.2 Billion 31 km Eglinton LRT crosstown that includes UNDERGROUND between Laird Drive in the east to Keele Street in the west ($71.0 million per km). And not all the others!

By using the most expensive of ONE LRT line and failing to acknowledge the OTHER LRT lines, your argument is pathetically weak!

The other Transit City LRT lines are still in the $40 million per km area, since they are above ground.

"In total, 120 km of service will be added over the entire city. By 2021, the new lines would carry 175 million riders per year. The estimated cost including vehicles is $6,100 million."
($50.8 million per km) This is the average of all LRT lines, both above ground and underground!
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/transit_city/index.htm

BTW, subways are extremely expensive in Toronto because the TTC uses such wide cars,... most other subway systems uses much narrower subway cars,... and thus only have to dig one tunnel that can be used to lay down two sets of tracks going in both directions,... whereas the TTC needs to dig out two parallel tunnels, one for each direction. Since LRT are much narrower than the subways TTC uses, I'm sure they'll only be digging out one tunnel for the underground LRT instead of 2 parallel tunnels.

Please inform yourself about these projects' true details - your rebuttal is flimsy. The cost of Transfer City is not going to be $6 billion, it'll be several billion dollars higher (the city guessed $8.3B in Nov. '07, and the final costs are sure to be higher). Current projections are at least $70M/km for the entire scheme, and the bulk of that is still middle of the street ROWs (Eglinton will be over $100M/km). Also, Jane and Don Mills will almost certainly have substantial tunnelled segments, adding handsomely to their costs.

We know that the real cost of LRT lines is not $40M/km, yet must subway projects be $300+M/km? Of course not. Subways do not need to be 100% underground, which would save billions of dollars should such reasonable design be built into a subway scheme as large as Transfer City. The two subway projects each have massive contingency components, adding almost $1B combined between the two of them...final project cost breakdowns for the Transfer City lines have not been released (partially because they haven't finalized how much will need to be grade separated) so we don't know if 25% contingency costs have been added, which would automatically raise the bare minimum LRT cost to $50M/km and alter your precious ratios.

Spadina is tunnelling under largely empty land, while the Yonge line has also been saddled with what might be the world's largest underground bus terminal; it is quite clearly overbuilt and adds at least $100M of entirely unnecessary cost (Transfer City lines could easily be overbuilt, too - we won't know until final designs are released, particularly for all the tunnelled segments). Tunnelling itself actually has a minor share of the Yonge extension's cost (and 1 vs 2 tunnels probably depends more on whether or not platforms are in the centre of the two tracks or on the sides than it depends on vehicles that vary in width by a few feet).

 

[Whoaccio]

Are you suggesting that those predominately White and Asian folks of "the Richmond Hill extension is clearly more beneficial to Toronto than the coming LRT fest in Malvern and the inscrutable Jane Line" where there are a lot more minority of darker skin colour? "(where does it go? who does it carry?)."

Are you a racist?

Just to be clear, this is a joke right?
My logic was that the RCC expansion is projected to host 175k odd boardings per day. The combined Sheppard East, Scarborough-Malvern & Jane Lines are projected at roughly 150k boardings (and practically no time savings) at exactly the same cost. Considering the RCC extension at least fits into existing travel patterns and passes through areas that are zoned for future growth, it makes more sense than running LRT to farmland.

 

[Voltz]

Originally Posted by sunnyraytoronto
http://lrt.daxack.ca/LRTvsHRT/CostCompare.html

Usually, 1km of subway can buy you about 6km of above ground LRT. But with both the Yonge and Spadina subway extensions both costing about $300-350 million per km. Whereas regular above ground LRT would cost about $40 million per km; the 1 km of subway would buy about 8-9km of LRT in Toronto.

In terms of Transit City,... 7 LRT lines,... with the most expensive Eglinton crosstown being about $2.2 billion because part of it is underground (the underground part is basically as expensive to build as an underground subway). Pick the average Transit City LRT line (can't be Eglinton!) and if you were to convert that one average Transit City LRT line to underground Subway, it would basically cost the same as the entire Transit City budget (well money they still need to get) for all 7 LRT lines.





$2.4 billion 6.8 km 6 station Yonge subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre ($352.9 million/km)
$2.8 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina Subway Extension from Downsview to Vaughan Corporate Centre ($325.6 million/km)
http://www.thestar.com/article/538111

Note: The entire Yonge Subway Extension is UNDERGROUND. Most of the Spadina Subway Extension is underground with the exception of a bridge over Hwy 407,.. BTW, that part north of Steeles to Hwy 7 will cost $1 Billion.

I'm wondering where you get your $70 million per Km for LRT line? Oh, that's right you're only looking at the most expensive line,... the $2.2 Billion 31 km Eglinton LRT crosstown that includes UNDERGROUND between Laird Drive in the east to Keele Street in the west ($71.0 million per km). And not all the others!

By using the most expensive of ONE LRT line and failing to acknowledge the OTHER LRT lines, your argument is pathetically weak!

The other Transit City LRT lines are still in the $40 million per km area, since they are above ground.

"In total, 120 km of service will be added over the entire city. By 2021, the new lines would carry 175 million riders per year. The estimated cost including vehicles is $6,100 million."
($50.8 million per km) This is the average of all LRT lines, both above ground and underground!
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/transit_city/index.htm

BTW, subways are extremely expensive in Toronto because the TTC uses such wide cars,... most other subway systems uses much narrower subway cars,... and thus only have to dig one tunnel that can be used to lay down two sets of tracks going in both directions,... whereas the TTC needs to dig out two parallel tunnels, one for each direction. Since LRT are much narrower than the subways TTC uses, I'm sure they'll only be digging out one tunnel for the underground LRT instead of 2 parallel tunnels.

Check your numbers, costs for TC have risen significantly, but its not a higher cost for building the same thing, it is because of additions such as the underground section on sheppard, an increase in the number of vehicles required, the long underground section required for Jane street, I do think that the Jane LRT should be cancelled if that long underground section south of wilson is reguired, it would not be worth the cost.

They are also building twin tunnels for the underground section on Eglintion (and probably station structures large enough for a subway train), further increasing costs, this is to allow for future conversion to a subway. Giambrone has said this is costing an extra $1 billion, I don't believe that it is that high, but it is still significant.

And there is no subway bridge over the 407

 

[Brandon716]

I hate to inject some more Pittsburgh into this discussion, but I think its relevent.

Pittsburgh is spending $435 million USD on a 1.2 mile subway extension of the T, an LRT system.

So the costs of our subway LRT using today's prices is approximately $400 million USD a mile. That's over $500 million CAD per mile for the Eglinton LRT subway minimum... I don't trust the estimates coming out, because the T likely has smaller subway stations and platforms being constructed.

The costs of Transit City are greatly conservative. It will cost much, much more. LRT isn't THAT cheap.

For more cost info, go here:

http://www.theboretotheshore.com/FAQs.html

or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Light_Rail#North_Shore_Connector_Project

 

[Rainforest]

Re: http://lrt.daxack.ca/LRTvsHRT/CostCompare.html

I find that site quite informative and helpful (contrary to the opinion expressed in one of earlier posts).

Note that the author (Calvin Henry-Cotnam) is not affiliated with TTC or its potential suppliers, and has undertaken that research on his own time.

Now, while Calvin's historical data on construction costs in Toronto and elsewhere are accurate, the estimates he uses for the upcoming LRT and subway projects are somewhat out of date, and hence lower than the most recent figures. This is not due to any kind of pro-LRT / anti-subway bias, and as mentioned, both his LRT and subway projections are somewhat lower than the latest TTC data.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Originally Posted by sunnyraytoronto
$2.4 billion 6.8 km 6 station Yonge subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre ($352.9 million/km)
$2.8 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina Subway Extension from Downsview to Vaughan Corporate Centre ($325.6 million/km)
http://www.thestar.com/article/538111

Note: The entire Yonge Subway Extension is UNDERGROUND. Most of the Spadina Subway Extension is underground with the exception of a bridge over Hwy 407,.. BTW, that part north of Steeles to Hwy 7 will cost $1 Billion.

I'm wondering where you get your $70 million per Km for LRT line? Oh, that's right you're only looking at the most expensive line,... the $2.2 Billion 31 km Eglinton LRT crosstown that includes UNDERGROUND between Laird Drive in the east to Keele Street in the west ($71.0 million per km). And not all the others!

By using the most expensive of ONE LRT line and failing to acknowledge the OTHER LRT lines, your argument is pathetically weak!

The other Transit City LRT lines are still in the $40 million per km area, since they are above ground.

"In total, 120 km of service will be added over the entire city. By 2021, the new lines would carry 175 million riders per year. The estimated cost including vehicles is $6,100 million."
($50.8 million per km) This is the average of all LRT lines, both above ground and underground!
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proje...city/index.htm

Please inform yourself about these projects' true details - your rebuttal is flimsy. The cost of Transfer City is not going to be $6 billion, it'll be several billion dollars higher (the city guessed $8.3B in Nov. '07, and the final costs are sure to be higher). Current projections are at least $70M/km for the entire scheme, and the bulk of that is still middle of the street ROWs (Eglinton will be over $100M/km). Also, Jane and Don Mills will almost certainly have substantial tunnelled segments, adding handsomely to their costs.

Here's a thought, if you have more accurate numbers to back up what you have to say,... why don't you provide some proofs,.. like links,.. perferably links to city websites or links to recent news articles (like I have!),... something,... anything,... would be better than pulling numbers out of your butt.

Otherwise, your rebuttal is,... flimsy!

 

[Disparishun]

Are you suggesting that those predominately White and Asian folks of "the Richmond Hill extension is clearly more beneficial to Toronto than the coming LRT fest in Malvern and the inscrutable Jane Line" where there are a lot more minority of darker skin colour? "(where does it go? who does it carry?)."

Are you a racist?

(Insert here joke about Sunnyray's hatred for Jews, Persians, Koreans et al., I suppose. This is humour?!)

But more to the point:

Last time I checked,... those folks in Malvern and along "the inscrutable Jane Line" pay municipal property taxes that goes towards the TTC. Richmond Hill does not pay any property tax that goes to the TTC!

And the TTC does not run any services into Richmond Hill! The YRT pays it to operate some for them, mind you -- a profit centre.

Now. "Those folks" in Malvern and what you keep calling the "inscrutable" Jane line (found a quote to latch on to?) participate in residential property tax payments, yes. But said property tax payments contribute about 15% of the TTC's costs. (Ironically, almost as much property tax is paid out by those employers who take advantage of the 905's and 416's infrastructure to shuttle in workers, fed by public transit from all over the place. Heck, those workers even buy lunch and go shopping while they're in town. Labour, shoppers, tourists. Every day! Can you imagine how much this is worth? )

Ahem. Anyway, those residential tax payments defraying about 15% of the TTC's operating costs. As it happens, the subway is the highest cost-recovery portion of the TTC. Not only is it the subway that those 905ers are taking into town every day to be good productive units for 416's employers and merchants, the subway doesn't even go to them -- it's pure marginal revenues!

In other words, it's likely that the small portion of TTC operating costs funded by City of Toronto residential property-owners (many of whom are City of Toronto residents, too, I should note) simply goes to paying for services used only by residents of the City of Toronto (of whom many are City of Toronto property-owners, natch).

 

[Brandon716]

Re: http://lrt.daxack.ca/LRTvsHRT/CostCompare.html

I find that site quite informative and helpful (contrary to the opinion expressed in one of earlier posts).

Note that the author (Calvin Henry-Cotnam) is not affiliated with TTC or its potential suppliers, and has undertaken that research on his own time.

Now, while Calvin's historical data on construction costs in Toronto and elsewhere are accurate, the estimates he uses for the upcoming LRT and subway projects are somewhat out of date, and hence lower than the most recent figures. This is not due to any kind of pro-LRT / anti-subway bias, and as mentioned, both his LRT and subway projections are somewhat lower than the latest TTC data.

I think you also need to put the projects mentioned in context. Denver's TREX project was mostly created inside the I-25 corridor, with land already under government ownership as part of a dual roadway and rail transit expansion. Its almost like redeveloping the 401 with LRT vehicles running in the center. This is what most of the TREX extension was, its hardly the kind of LRT Toronto needs nor are the costs truly comparable.

There are similar problems comparing these other LRT systems to what would be needed in Toronto. For example, some fare systems are radically different from the platform stations mentioned in Transit City.

I've been to Denver several times in the past 5 years, unfortunately much of that because my aircraft was stranded at Denver Int'l. When I ride their system a lot of it is lost opportunity because the entire TREX project is basically in the middle of a major highway and is meant for park and ride lots, there's very little "urban" in the TREX expansion. I guess its another example of American waste of what could have been.

A lot of American LRT systems don't have fare booths, and you just have more simplistic platforms with maximum of 2 car LRT trains where the person enters the front and pays with the driver...

That again will not work for Toronto as Toronto is a more transit intensive city.

There are so many factors not going into the discussion on comparing to American cities, and again I'm kind of curious as to why the author of that web site didn't compare Transit City's LRT plans to Pittsburgh's T system, as the T is one of the few systems that becomes a subway in the central city (and has other tunnels such as between the suburbs of Dormont and Mt Lebanon, PA).

When you create a higher quality LRT system, you get something like what Pittsburgh has. And Toronto will still need platforms that take more than 2 cars per train. Trust me... 2 cars is not enough for the demand along Eglinton and other corridors. And as I already stated, with no one making any comments, to bore 2 tunnels for a 1.2 mile extension of the T it has cost $435 million USD.

$400 million per mile for a higher quality LRT system is what you're looking at for the Eglinton underground line, and it still needs bigger platforms than the Pittsburgh T.

If Eglinton crosstown is going to be LRT, they are going to have to pour a little more into the system than what the estimate is right now. For a full-featured fare booth attended system with large platforms both above and below ground, it'll be significantly more than the estimate provided. To be honest, if done right, the LRT version of an Eglinton crosstown line might actually work well. But again, without sounding like a broken record, it has to be able to handle more than 2 cars per train and all of the other features like attended fare booths.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Here's a thought, if you have more accurate numbers to back up what you have to say,... why don't you provide some proofs,.. like links,.. perferably links to city websites or links to recent news articles (like I have!),... something,... anything,... would be better than pulling numbers out of your butt.

Otherwise, your rebuttal is,... flimsy!

If you're unable to find some of these documents (they're linked to repeatedly in all kinds of threads), here's a few:

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3405/_conv.htm

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comr...8/TYSSE_Project_Delivery_Strategy_Process.pdf

http://vivayork.com/downloads/november_28/Dec_3_Final_08_12_04.pdf

http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TT...ion_recommended_concept_project_issues_de.pdf

www.stevemunro.ca

Hell, you can find more accurate information in wikipedia than in your posts.

Note: these sites use words instead of emoticons and exclamation marks.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

We know that the real cost of LRT lines is not $40M/km, yet must subway projects be $300+M/km? Of course not. Subways do not need to be 100% underground, which would save billions of dollars should such reasonable design be built into a subway scheme as large as Transfer City. The two subway projects each have massive contingency components, adding almost $1B combined between the two of them...final project cost breakdowns for the Transfer City lines have not been released (partially because they haven't finalized how much will need to be grade separated) so we don't know if 25% contingency costs have been added, which would automatically raise the bare minimum LRT cost to $50M/km and alter your precious ratios.

Dude,... that "massive contingency components" is almost 1 Billion dollar on the Yonge Subway extension alone! Actually about $881 million in "contingency components". 75% on "contingency" on the Yonge Subway extension.

When it opened, the 6.4 km (including tail track) 5 station Sheppard subway line costed just under $1.0 billion in 2002 (factor in inflation and that works out to $1.1 billion in 2008 dollars & thus $171.9 million/km in 2008 dollars).

The $2.4 billion (2008 dollars) 6.8 km 6 station Yonge subway extension cost more than DOUBLE the Sheppard subway line on a per km basis ($352.9 million/km in 2008 dollars). For the Yonge Subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre here's the final Project Cost Estimates (2008 dollars)

$650 million Stations and Area Facilities
.......($5 million Finch Improvements)
......($70 million Cummer/Drewry)
.....($195 million Steeles)
......($70 million Clark)
......($65 million Royal Orchard)
......($85 million Langstaff/Longbridge)
.....($160 million Richmond Hill Centre)
$600 million Tunnels, Special Structures and Operating Systems
$240 million Subway Trains
$110 million Storage and Maintenance Facilities for Subway Trains
$675 million Engineering and Other Costs
$125 million Property
---------------------------------------
$2,400 million $2.4 BILLION total

This $2.4 Billion proposal includes $350-million for rolling stock and maintenance facilities. On Sheppard, these were paid for from one or more separate project budgets. Ok,... so let's factor out the $350-million for rolling stock and maintenance facilities ($240 million Subway Trains + $110 million Storage and Maintenance Facilities for Subway Trains),.. that'll put the Yonge Subway extension at $2.05 Billion or $301.47 million/km versus the $171.9 million/km (in 2008 dollars) for the Sheppard subway line. Ok,... so Yonge subway extension is now 75% higher than Sheppard Subway line on a per km basis. Why??? Are we considering the higher cost of Yonge Street frontage vs Sheppard Avenue frontage when we dig tunnels underground???

75% on a subway extension,... that's a heck of a lot of "contingency components"! The Yonge Subway extension includes about $881 million in "contingency components". ($2.05 Billion - (6.8 km * $171.9 million/km))

Seriously,... Why is the 6.8 km 6 station Yonge Subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre is projected to cost significantly more than the cost of the 6.4 km 5 station Sheppard subway line completed just 6 years ago.
- Both uses the same construction techniques - tunnel boring machine for the tunnels and Cut and Cover at subway stations
- Both of them had to deal with the Don River East,... both choose to build a bridge over it. Sheppard line has $15 million enclosed subway bridge just east of Leslie station.
- Yonge Subway extension includes a mega underground 26 bay bus terminal at Steeles,... Sheppard line has a very large underground bus terminal at Don Mills.
- Yonge Subway extension includes a large Union Station of the North terminal at Richmond Hill Centre,... but the GO station and Bus terminals are already there today and are quite new so they don't need to be built.
- The most challenging part of building the Sheppard Subway line was placing the new East-West Sheppard Subway station directly on top of the existing North-South Sheppard Subway station on the Yonge Line,... all without distrupting service while passengers were still using Sheppard station on the Yonge Line! At the intersection of Yonge and Sheppard, during construction the whole intersection was just a big hole in the ground!,... right on top of the Yonge Subway line,... they had to build a temporary roadway for Yonge beside this huge hole,... and another temporary roadway for Sheppard too! There is absolutely nothing on the proposed Yonge subway extension that even comes close to the kind of complexity at the Sheppard-Yonge Subway station.

Whether you look at the Yonge Subway Extension as $2.4 Billion ($352.9 million/km in 2008 dollars) or without the $350 million for rolling stock and maintenance facilities ($301.47 million/km in 2008 dollars),... that still places the proposed Yonge subway extension as amongst the most expensive in the world on a per km basis! And that's WITHOUT including all the conditional "speculative costs" Toronto & TTC are now adding which can bring the final projected cost of the Yonge Subway Extension to $4-5 Billion,... and that's not including budget overruns!!! The $2.63 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina Subway Extension ($305.8 million/km) isn't much better either. Only Jubilee line extension of the London Tube (20 years ago) was more expensive and that works out to about just under $400 million per km (2008). And that extension crossed the Thames River 4 times, tunnel under historic London and all 11 stations were designed by high profile architects! Wiki Jubilee Line Extension & wiki through each 11 stations,.. our subway extension doesn't include stations looking anything like Canada Water, Canary Wharf & Stratford station.

http://mic-ro.com/metro/phototour.html?city=london

Wait a minute,... if you're spending $2.63 billion for the 8.6 km 6 station Spadina Subway Extension you better do it right (and like you've got money to burn!) and spend $8-15 million on each station to have some of those high profile UK architects who helped make the London Tube's Jubilee Line Extension such a huge bottomless money pit design your subway station too!

"In anticipation of the extension of the Spadina subway north from Downsview, the TTC has hired a gaggle of globe-trotting architects to design six new stations.",... "Among them are two leading U.K. practitioners, Will Alsop and Norman Foster, both of whom have worked in Toronto. Alsop, of course, is the author of the celebrated "flying tabletop" at the Ontario College of Art and Design. Foster's only local project is the University of Toronto's Leslie Dan Pharmacy Building.",... "Alsop has worked on the London Underground, as has Foster, whose firm designed the enormous stop at Canary Wharf." (Some say you can fit the entire Olympia & York Canary Wharf office tower inside the Canary Wharf subway station!) Will Alsop designed the North Greenwich station on the Jubilee line.

http://www.thestar.com/article/538111

$8-15 million just to design subway station for low density areas full of cookie cutter houses! Why don't they just reuse some of the blue prints from some of the 69 stations that's in the system already.

 

[Rainforest]

... I'm kind of curious as to why the author of that web site didn't compare Transit City's LRT plans to Pittsburgh's T system, as the T is one of the few systems that becomes a subway in the central city (and has other tunnels such as between the suburbs of Dormont and Mt Lebanon, PA).

Yes, the Pittsburgh system is missing from the cost comparison page. However, it is reviewed elsewhere on that site: http://www.lrt.daxack.ca/Pittsburgh/index.html

Now, while a Pittsburgh's T type system might be needed for Eglinton, it would be an overkill for all other planned TC lines.

For example, some fare systems are radically different from the platform stations mentioned in Transit City.

(?) I thought that POP is planned for TC lines ... and that requires least capital investment (not sure about the enforcement cost though).

When you create a higher quality LRT system, you get something like what Pittsburgh has. And Toronto will still need platforms that take more than 2 cars per train. Trust me... 2 cars is not enough for the demand along Eglinton and other corridors. And as I already stated, with no one making any comments, to bore 2 tunnels for a 1.2 mile extension of the T it has cost $435 million USD.

$400 million per mile for a higher quality LRT system is what you're looking at for the Eglinton underground line, and it still needs bigger platforms than the Pittsburgh T.

If Eglinton crosstown is going to be LRT, they are going to have to pour a little more into the system than what the estimate is right now. For a full-featured fare booth attended system with large platforms both above and below ground, it'll be significantly more than the estimate provided. To be honest, if done right, the LRT version of an Eglinton crosstown line might actually work well. But again, without sounding like a broken record, it has to be able to handle more than 2 cars per train and all of the other features like attended fare booths.

The capacity to handle long trains certainly makes sense, and should be doable (although that does not guarantee that TTC will actually do it). The central, tunneled section could be built for long trains, which would short-turn at Jane and Don Mills (two logical points to switch from full grade separation to street median). Shorter 2-car trains would traverse the whole line.

Not sure if attended fare booths are mandatory. After all, the GO train system operates on POP.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

If you're unable to find some of these documents (they're linked to repeatedly in all kinds of threads), here's a few:

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3405/_conv.htm

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comr...8/TYSSE_Project_Delivery_Strategy_Process.pdf

http://vivayork.com/downloads/november_28/Dec_3_Final_08_12_04.pdf

http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TT...ion_recommended_concept_project_issues_de.pdf

www.stevemunro.ca

Hell, you can find more accurate information in wikipedia than in your posts.

Note: these sites use words instead of emoticons and exclamation marks.

And what numbers in any of those links back up what you have to say?!?!? Oh dear,... I just used question marks and exclamations marks,... better throw in an emoticon too!